Question Time in Blackpool, 1 March 2018. Photo: BBC1 Question Time
Who should decide on fracking came under the spotlight on BBC Question Time from Blackpool last night.
The Conservative panellist, Ken Clarke, said the Government should decide because he believed national interest outweighed local opinion.
The former UKIP leader, Nigel Farage, while supporting fracking, said local people could be given the say through a local referendum.
Labour’s Owen Smith, the Shadow Northern Ireland Spokesperson, said the Government had overblown the benefits of fracking and lied about giving local views priority. This wouldn’t happen under Labour, he said.
Audience member who asked the question about fracking decisions, Question Time, 1 March 2018
The politicians were responding to an audience question:
“Is it fair that on two occasions planning permission to frack this area was not approved by the council and the government overruled us?”
The Communities Secretary, Sajid Javid, granted planning permission for Cuadrilla’s fracking scheme at Preston New Road, near Blackpool. He also said he was minded to approve a similar proposal at Roseacre Wood. Both applications had been refused by Lancashire County Council.
Last night’s Question Time also heard from Michelle Dewberry, winner of The Apprentice in 2016, and now a TV presenter and businesswoman. She said the fracking industry had failed to win over people. Another panellist, Blue Peter and Winter Olympics presenter Radzi Chinyanganya, called for a move away from fossil fuels to renewable energy.
The issue of who should decide on fracking plans is now being investigated by a parliamentary select committee.
One option would be to regard fracking as nationally-significant infrastructure, where decisions are automatically made by ministers.
Lancashire County Council said no to national decision-making last week. Fylde, the district council covering Cuadrilla’s sites, is being recommended by officers to say there is “merit” in taking fracking decisions out of local control. (DrillOrDrop report)
One member of the largely anti-fracking Question Time audience contrasted how the will of the people was being used to support Brexit but not local fracking decisions.
Another said a shale gas industry would generate “billions of pounds” of tax revenue and “millions for the local economy”.
He said:
“Everyone in this room is going to go home tonight and put their gas central heating on. A wind turbine is not going to heat your house. It was the Labour Party in 2008 that actually got the ball rolling on shale gas and issued the exploratory drilling licences.
“This is under British regulations and British gas engineers, the best in the world. We will do it right.”
The final comment from the audience was:
“I wonder if the decision would have been overturned in the same way if the fracking was taking place south of Watford.”
Who said what about who decides?
Michelle Dewberry
“I think fracking, for whatever reason, is an industry that has completely failed to win over and convince people of their arguments.
“I think people are concerned about safety. People don’t want earthquakes and big firms denying all knowledge and then admitting down the line that maybe it is.
“It is a real safety concern and until those safety concerns are properly addressed and people understand what’s going on, until that point is reached, we’ve got a problem. I don’t understand what it’s going to take, because it hasn’t yet happened that that industry has managed to get people bought into what they’re doing and the benefits of it and address their real safety concerns.”
Asked if fracking would happen, she said:
“I think it is something that is not still understood enough to the degree where we can make a proper informed decision about it and I don’t quite understand why it is a very unpopular industry, and I understand people’s concerns here, if it was on my back garden I’d have concerns about it as well. But I just think that the industry needs to work closely with government regulations and residents to properly communicate what it is doing and to reassure those safety concerns if it wants to get the go ahead.”
Nigel Farage
Nigel Farage, former UKIP leader, on Question Time, 1 March 2018. Photo: BBC1 Question Time
“It’s right of Government to have concerns. Michelle’s point about a very effective lobby against fracking – and they’ve been very good at it – they’ve been very good at putting the fear of God into people.
“Look, no form of the extractive industry doesn’t bring some degree of risk with it, whether it is coal mining or whatever it may be.
“We have been fracking since the 1950s. America has done more of it than we’ve done but even we’ve done a bit of fracking in this country.
“What you have got in this part of England is the most phenomenal reserve of natural gas.
“Exploited carefully and sensibly, it would not leave great scars on the landscape like coal mining did in many areas and it would revolutionise the economy of the northwest of England by providing tens of thousands of well-paid jobs.”
To shouts from the audience, he said:
“We must be mad, we must be mad, to look a gift-horse in the mouth.”
The audience booed when he said:
“It’s unpopular because people don’t like things in their back yard obviously and because the campaign has been effective against it.
Ken Clarke
Ken Clarke, former Conservative Chancellor and Home Secretary, on Question Time, 1 March 2018. Photo: BBC1 Question Time
“Of course we have a good local planning system but in big things of national importance the Government must have a role particularly nowadays.”
He said if Isambard Kingdom Brunel were building a railway from London to Bristol, he would have been advised not to go through the planning system. Mr Clarke likened fracking to building new roads, railways and airport runways. He said:
“You take account of local opinion.”
David Dimbleby: “and then ignore it?”
“You don’t ignore it but the national interest outweighs that and if the local opinion is just rejecting advice of the national geological survey, the scientific world, about whether there are risks involved in fracking or not, I think a Government is entitled to say in the national interest I think we’re going ahead.”
Mr Clark said:
“We have had decades of fracking and all this campaigning about all the dreadful things that are supposed to happen, your water will be poisoned, you’ll have earthquakes…”
David Dimbleby: “They did have earthquakes
Mr Clark said the Blackpool event was “not detectable by a human being on the surface. It was a low level tremor.”
Several people in the audience said “I felt it”.
At least nine people put up their hands when asked if they had felt the earthquake connected to fracking at Cuadrilla’s in 2011.
Radzi Chinyanganya
“We talk about well blow outs, we talk about its carbon intensity, we talk about it’s [being] water intensive but the very big issue is that if we’re serious about protecting this blue marvel that we’re on we need to move away from fossil fuels and really embrace renewable energy. In this area, there’s a lot of wind, why don’t we use it?”
Owen Smith
Owen Smith, Labour’s Shadow Northern Ireland Secretary, on Question Time, 1 March 2018. Photo: BBC1 Question Time
“The benefits of fracking are totally overblown. The volume of jobs will be tiny, the reserves that we have are much less than America or France or some of the other places where they have shale gas to frack. In some of those places, like France, they have decided not go after it.
“Why did we have the Tories overruling local people? It was because they decided round the time of them getting elected in 2010 that it was a good idea for them to try to mimic the States. They could sell to people, as part of their election platform, that they were going to unveil this great new industrial revolution. It was going to produce jobs and cheap, free energy practically in this country. All a load of rubbish.
“The other thing they lied to people about was their suggestion that local people and local decisions will be given primacy. That clearly hasn’t happened here. It should have happened and if it had happened we would not have the fracking in Blackpool. It wouldn’t happen under a Labour Government.”
Question Time can be viewed for 11 months on the BBC IPlayer
What do you think about the answers of the Question Time panel? Please post a comment with your views.
Categories: Politics
DRILL OR DROP? 
TO THE LAST PERsON MAKING A COMMENT..IF SURREY IS SOUTH OF WATFORD..THEN LEITH HILL IS GOING TO BE FRACKED..by acidisation..also BALCOMBE..NO DIVIDE AND RULE..NO FRACKING ANYWHERE
Farage is my man.. deserves to be on the wall in every home imho. But he is wrong.. the UK has not been ‘fracking’ for the last 50 years!!! They have never ‘fracked’ (original definition before the government changed it) in fact, especially not with horizontal wells and the current chemicals. There have never been ‘methane blowoffs’ or the type of operation that is being proposed. Sure, Nigel wants independance so I grant him he sees fracking as a tool in that direction- but let him live near a well for a year so that he fully understands the consequences.
It maybe Offshore but it is still U.K
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_fracturing_in_the_United_Kingdom
Actually, we know that Horndean in Hampshire has been fracked’ probably about ten years ago, but the Environment Agency only seems to have known about this recently. There may be other areas.
Ann Stewart
Yes, other areas have been fracked, including Farley’s Wood well in Nottinghamshire, in the Crenshaw Sandstone, just down the road from where I type this. The HSEx will know about it, but the EA may not have been interested in the actual fracking ( a small low volume frack ) at the time, outwith any impact on the surface.
Its obvious that Clarke and Farage have no idea about any of this , if they had done any research they would know that “We” have not been High volume High pressure fracking since the 50s , its a totally different technique that is untested apart from Cuadrilla’s disaster in 2012 which I believe has left a damaged well to deal with .
Jono
I agree with you in that there has been no HPHV fracking, but as you can see from the replies on this thread, some people consider any fracking to be bad, no matter how small. Anna above would be in that camp at present should anyone acid frack in the Weald. No sign of HapHV fracking there yet.
Owen Smith looks like an incompetent little guy hence why he couldn’t even get rid of Comrade Corbychev.
I quite liked the coloured guys comments about democracy but then of course he said he was a fan of the crazy wizard so that killed off any form of respect I had.
The apprentice girl seems ok but lacked true intellect. I actually turned down appearing on the Apprentice in year 2 as the contract was pathetic. Girlfriend at the time wasn’t too happy mind, think she thought she’d be a celebrity.
Blackpool is on its knees and with the likes of the barmy army trying to dictate they are closed to business I can only see it getting worse.
I do apologise for the two Scots that have clearly moved to the area that spoke out.
[Comment removed by moderator]
[Comment removed by moderator]
There was only one panelist who demonstrated a deeper understanding beyond the clichéd sound bites on the QT panel last night. Thank you Radzi Chinyanganya
Why have you not reported this fully?
Why do you pick and choose comments from the audience that suit your argument.
I said everybody in the audience is going to go home and put their gas central heating on tonight
I said wind turbines don’t heat houses
I said we are heating our homes with Russian and Qatari gas
I said it was Labour who issued the majority of exploratory drilling licences in 2008 and got the shale gas ball rolling
I said this will not be a mirror industry of America
I said it will be under British Regulations
I said we have the best gas engineers in the World
Please remove the text at the top right of your page that says you report indepndently. YOU DON’T…
Hi, I take it you were the chap that spoke last and were in favour of shale? You have my respect, the most articulate person on the subject as is usually the case.
It must have been very lonely in that audience then Kisheny , you are no doubt invested ?
Someone had to do it, lonely? I was in the majority when I turned my gas central heating on when I got home. You were probably in a warm house too…
Being in a warm house does not mean powered by gas; I wonder where you have appeared from Kish, to stand up and perpetuate the company line. Are you paid overtime for this?
80% of the U.K enjoy the benefits of a warm house powered by gas. If this doesn’t fit your ideals please feel free to turn off your system and go and have a long cold shower…
already have, and my shower is lovely and warm, thanks
Replying to:
This line has already been disproved; move on, nothing to see here….
Russia delivering more gas to Britain to relieve cold-weather shortage
https://www.rt.com/business/420464-russia-lng-tanker-britain/
Just fact-checked one of your answers, about our gas coming from Qatar & Russia https://www.britishgas.co.uk/the-source/our-world-of-energy/energys-grand-journey/where-does-uk-gas-come-from, looks like I don’t need to bother with the rest if they are also evidence-free. Lots of us also live is gas free rural areas, and there are other fuels and ways to heat homes that we need to switch to.
Kevin I expect you know that the BG link you refer to is very misleading – probably deliberately – in trying to pretend UK gets a lot of gas from Russia, when other more reliable sources show otherwise, e.g. chart 4.2 in https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/632523/Chapter_4.pdf
Pro-frackers – and that includes British Gas – try to pretend that the UK gets much of its gas from Russia so must reduce this [mythical] reliance on Russia by fracking. But the gov report shows otherwise, and states “principally from Norway and by ship, with little or no
direct reliance on Russian gas”. OK – Europe gets a lot of gas from Russia, but not the UK – according to the gov report. Another pro-frackers myth – used by Kisheny to scaremonger on gas supply security.
Henry
Nobody is pretending the U.K gets a lot of gas from Russia. Get yourself down to the LNG terminal at Milford Haven Tomorrow. That will give you a taste as to how big these Vessels are with all that Russian LNG onboard…
Russia delivering more gas to Britain to relieve cold-weather shortage
https://www.rt.com/business/420464-russia-lng-tanker-britain/
Maybe I have a more up to date lead on facts Kevin?
Russia delivering more gas to Britain to relieve cold-weather shortage
https://www.rt.com/business/420464-russia-lng-tanker-britain/
It will be in the more min stream news tomorrow…
Dear Kisheny
Thanks for your comment.
I’ve some more of your points from the broadcast.
Regards
Ruth
Thanks Ruth
Really appreciate it…
I work in the Offshore oil, gas and renewable industry. I was one of the team who flew the ROV connecting the power/ fibre optic connections to the Hywind wind turbines, fantastic job and felt great being part of such a ground breaking Renewables project.
I firmly believe that Renewables with gas backup is the way forward without doubt.
Having spent many years in the industry I am fully aware of the U.Ks energy mix and how we source oil and gas. It is with this hands on experience in the field not just working in the U.K but worldwide that I have formulated my opinions.
Previously to Offshore work I was in the Military for thirteen years and have served in some very unstable Countries. This is why I am so averse to a reliance on gas from Qatar and especially Russia. The reliance on gas from Russia not only for the U.K but Europe in general is having an adverse effect on any sanctions placed on Russia and thus rendering them very weak.
Living only a few miles from the Cuadrilla site I have seen the development there. At first I was extremely sceptical and only had the experiences of the United States to get some sort of idea what the end product would be. Following statements and reports from all parties it became apparent this operation was going to be extremely well regulated to the highest standards. Working to U.K Offshore standards seemed reasonably mild compared to what Cuadrilla set their benchmark at. I was satisfied with the operations, myself having three young children I would not settle for anything less.
So what has annoyed me?
The protest campaign…
Why? Traffic problems initially, the cost of policing and fake injuries then making calls to the emergency services requesting ambulances.
A family member is a police officer in Blackpool and told me there was a number of paid protestors at the site. People from out of the area coming in to cause disruption and being paid to do it.
The most recent activity has been mobile billboards on trailers parked at strategic points in my local area with all sorts of disgusting lies.
The spread of misinformation and an assumption that the U.K shale industry will be exactly the same as Americas is wrong.
Thank you…
Kisheny,
I think the key point you have missed is the biggest issue our nation will ever have to face – climate change.
Our climate is already destabilising as a result of the rapid warming we are seeing in the Arctic. The pace with which we are losing sea ice will have huge implications for weather patterns and agricultural production across the entire northern hemisphere.
On top of that the warming we are seeing is causing permafrost to melt. Unfortuntely for all life on this planet permafrost contains vast amounts of methane and that methane is 25 times more powerful that CO2. This is one of the reasons why Prof Stephen Hawking recently warned that runaway climate change could kill us all.
So the one thing the majority of climate scientists agree on is that, if we are to meet our Paris COP21 commitments, and avoid the runaway greenhouse effect, we need to get out of fossil fuels incredibly fast. There can be no place for Fracking, aviation expansion, driving petrol/diesel cars, or heating our homes with conventional gas, if we are meet the COP 21 commitments.
Climate change is without doubt our main national security issue, so we need to deploy the full range of renewable technologies, including renewable heat and energy storage. And, to have any chance of meeting COP 21, we have to do it by around the year 2030. If we take any longer we run the very real risk that the runaway greenhouse effect will begin and then overwhelm us.
Quick reply Jon, Greater release of GHG from Extraction in Qatar, liquifying, transport, regasification than shale gas with new methane capture tech…
You are wrong about UK being reliant on gas from Russia. Europe maybe, but UK no.
See chart 4.2 and statement in 4.8 of this gov report on UK gas: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/632523/Chapter_4.pdf
statement in 4.8: “… UK (principally from Norway and by ship, with little or no
direct reliance on Russian gas).”
It’s a profrackers myth that the UK has a gas insecurity threat due to [false] reliance on Russia gas.
In 2016 much of our gas imported was from Norway acc to chart 4.2, a lot less from other countries.
Governments across Europe play down dramatically their reliance on Russian gas for obvious political reasons. U.K gas on the decline, Dutch will go that way also…
This line has already been disproved; move on, nothing to see here….
I was never wrong about Russian gas…
Russia delivering more gas to Britain to relieve cold-weather shortage
https://www.rt.com/business/420464-russia-lng-tanker-britain/
It will be in the more main stream media soon enough
It’s a matter of what information you have?
Kisheny – an ‘independent journalist’ is free to call things as they see fit. How and why this blog is independent has been explained a few times before. Your points are so agenda-laden that it just generates a lot of extra work, to filter and balance them – to gain some kind of credibility or balance. If you were one of the panel that would be different.
I felt under-represented compared to the other members of the audience comments that were printed in this article. Ruth has added some more of my comments. I have thanked Ruth and appreciate her professional journalism.
In answer to Kisheny’s “wind turbines don’t heat houses”:
1. Under development now is: electricity from wind turbines – especially when they peak at periods of lower demand being used to extract hydrogen via electrolysis, to be added to the grid to the methane, up to about 20% of the gas, which can then be used to heat houses etc, reducing fossil methane by a fifth.
2. Electricity from wind turbines amplified by use of heat pumps can be used to heat houses.
3. And it’s of course not just wind turbine alternatives to fossil gas, e.g. (i) Insulation and demand reduction methods – much scope for that. (ii) and of course many other methods.
Plenty of scientific studies on how we can reduce use of fossil gas into the future.
In the UK we’ve already reduced UK gas demand by efficiencies. There’s plenty of scope and viable means for further reductions in UK gas demand.
Completely agree 100% with your statement as I have been part of a team installing Offshore wind turbines. Unfortunately today 80% of the population has GCH. I firmly believe over the next forty years this will change and only a small amount of gas will be used in the energy mix for industrial purposes.
Thank you Kisheny if you are agreeing with my statement looking into the future. Unfortunately because we need to urgently and rapidly reduce our use of gas as from now, there is no time-space for starting up a new gas extraction industry and also complying with the temperature goals of the Paris Agreement. See paper by climate scientists Anderson & Broderick on gas and climate referred to in http://www.dragonfly1.plus.com/NOtoShaleGas-on1sheet.pdf
As the gas prices rise I think you will find this shift away quicker than your guestimate of 40 years; lack of money drives change; lack of trust in corporations with hidden agenda quickens the pace.
‘Unfortunately today 80% of the population has GCH’ – unfortunate if it is if true- I see you get your ‘facts’ from the British gas website with it’s misleading info-graphic?
‘I firmly believe over the next forty years this will change’
It will have to be quicker than that….
The UK Housing Energy Fact File 2013 states:
Households are responsible for a quarter of the UK’s greenhouse gas emissions.
The 2008 Climate Change Act requires:
a 34% cut in 1990 greenhouse gas emissions* by 2020, and
at least an 80% cut in emissions by 2050.
It will be impossible to meet the 2050 objective without changing emissions from homes.
and,
‘The energy used in homes accounts for more than a quarter of energy use and carbon dioxide emissions in the United Kingdom. More energy is used in housing than either road transport or industry (Graph 1a), and housing represents a major opportunity to cut energy use and CO2 emissions.’
Evidence is key and was clearly missing from the contributions by Ken Clarke MP and Nigel Farrage in last night’s BBC Question Time.
Two GOVERNMENT reports established that the worst impacts associatged with fracking would be suffered by the local communities. Dr Damien Short’s research shows no community which he visited which originally welcomed the industry would do so again. As Prof. Michael Stephenson of the British Geological Survey (BGS) said in a lecture at the LSE Energy Society, Shale Gas and Fracking: the Science behind the controversy (Feb 23rd, 2016).
“There is no doubt that this is a very dirty, noisy industry” and
“You should never frack near or close to a fault line!”
While the north of England – Lancs and Yorks – face companies seeking GAS, counties in the south, namely those in the area of the WEALD, such as Surrey, Sussex and the Isle of Wight are facing UNCONVENTIONAL OIL extraction.
Stick to Nuclear Jill.
Yeah Jill.
Mustn’t allow the truth to be told here. That really puts a spanner in the works, eh GBK?
Very pleased to see Owen Smith’s robust response, and that’s from the right of the Labour Party. Rest assured that Labour Party members will be holding the next Labour Government to account, and there will not be fracking on our watch. The only way to effectively stop fracking in the UK is to elect a Labour Government.
What planet do you live on? We’re going to put Labour back into the stone age at next election. [Edited by moderator]
The Labour Party in 2008 issued the majority of drilling licences to in effect get the shale gas ball rolling…
So, at the time (10 years ago) renewables were in their infancy; men in black promising to fill the fictitious gap – all staged by two prominent politicians from both sides of the pond looking to make a ‘killing’, perpetuated by two buddies who have now been moved on.
The good news is that in 2018 we have a Labour Party whose members do not support fracking on climate change grounds and will ban it when they are in power (don’t underestimate this large body of committed people who will be supported just on the reversal of the systematic decimation of the NHS, care services and other support services, that has resulted in premature deaths; everyone has an NHS story).
For now, they have held up their hands and made the declaration.
To date there has been one frack which resulted in 50 seismic events; well deterioration and drilling problems; artificially propped up companies. Not a great track record compared to wind generation development over the same period.
I applaud your declaration that renewables plus gas back up is the future, but your timeline is unrealistic.
Shale gas extraction is not for energy generation, its for the ethane for plastic, not a transition fuel.
How did Owen Smith vote the last time Hydraulic Fracturing legislation went before the house.
Owen Smith voted against greater restrictions on hydraulic fracturing (fracking) to extract shale gas in National Parks, the Broads, areas of outstanding natural beauty, World Heritage sites, and near points where water is abstracted for domestic and food production purposes.
Well what a surprise!
https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/24797/owen_smith/pontypridd/divisions?policy=6741
Sadly, the South of Watford comment is a sign of how little the general public is aware of the numerous oil initiatives in the Weald area in the South. Surry, Sussex, the Isle of Wight are all under threat.
Both Ken Clarke and Nigel Farage went into that gung ho, bullying mode of “economic necessity” and “thousands of jobs”, without any acknowledgment of the complexities of the issues. For local people it won’t mean thousands of jobs, it may mean a few, but then any new industry will provide some new jobs, including the renewable energy industry. And yes, there are concerns about energy security and our personal comfort and economic health do rely on energy, but if we don’t take the huge problem of climate change very seriously then the economic as well as the human consequences are going to affect us in the UK, and very soon. It’s a pity that Ken Clarke can acknowledge the complexities of Brexit but not those of energy policy and fracking.
Still, both Ken and Nigel are not short of a bob or two. They are going be able to buy their way out of the consequences
In 2015 at local Hustings in Haywards Heath , Nicholas Soames, when asked about Fracking didn’t want it on his doorstep , he said ” Test it to see if its safe in the Bowland in Lancashire where they wont notice it ” This is a true CONservative attitude yet it is very likely that fracking will be the only way to release hydrocarbons from the targeted Kimmeridge layers here south of Watford , a case of industry creep now they have a foot in the door . But they knew this all along.