Regulation

Live news updates from Pickering debate on fracking regulation: MP vs the engineer

Live updates from the debate between Thirsk and Malton MP, Kevin Hollinrake, and oil and gas industry engineer, Mike Hill.

Mr Hollinrake (left) is proposing the motion: This house believes that UK regulations make fracking safe”. Mr Hill (right) puts the case against. The chair is the Right Reverend James Jones. formerly Bishop of Liverpool and Bishop of Hull and chair of the the Hillsborough Panel supervising disclosure of documents relating to the football stadium disaster.

The two-hour debate has been organised by Kirkbymoorside Town Council and aims to inform councillors and citizens about fracking. It comes as Third Energy, which wants to frack the local KM8 well at Kirby Misperton, has said the operation will be delayed until the autumn (see DrillOrDrop report).

Reporting from the debate has been made possible by donations from individual DrillOrDrop readers.


 

8.53pm: Vote on the motion

Bishop James puts the motion to the audience. It is overwhelmingly lost.

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Vote against the motion. Photo: Eddie Thornton

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Vote against the motion. Photo: DrillOrDrop

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Votes for the motion. Photo: DrillOrDrop

Bishop James Jones says:

“People responsible for regulation nationally and locally need to take note.”


8.39pm: Panel summing up – Mike Hill

Mr Hill says there are now 800 studies coming out of the US which predict deaths. One of them says fracking causes cancer. That causes death, he says.

The EA has not fully implemented regulations, he says. You are not independent of the operators if you take money from them, he says.

It is self-regulated with a woeful inspection strategy, a civil servant, says, Mr Hill reports.

The UK has a good record offshore, Mr Hill says. Onshore: only one well has been fracked onshore and that had problems.

On goal setting, Mr Hills says the words were from the HSE not from me.

On chemicals, Mr  Hill says what comes back is more important than what goes down.

It is insulting to say that fracking is no big deal, he says. It will be a very big deal for the farming industry.

People may be prepared to move out of their homes if there is an emergency. People need to know what the evacuation policy is. You can’t be serious to rely on a telephone tree, Mr Hill says.

On the issue of previous concerns, you haven’t lived through this before, Mr Hill says. There has been only one high volume hydraulically fracked well at Preese Hall.

To say let’s have a cautious start, not with my family’s health you don’t.

The audience has weaknesses with the system. On the pro-side it shows that they are not listening to you, he says.

Shale gas is a bridge to nowhere. It is a bridge to nowhere. Fugitive emissions are running at 9% in the US on average. If you care about the planet, you should burn coal with fugitive emissions from shale gas above 4%. I know it is a lie to say it is a bridge to a low carbon future.

A government report says we are secure without shale gas for the next two decades, Mr Hill. Government figures show imports from Russia and some other countries is 3%. This is scaremongering, he says.

To get a small amount of gas out of the ground will need thousands of wells. This is not conventional gas. This is like getting gas out of a balloon. Shale gas is like getting gas out of granite. The permeabilities are so low. Richard Davies from ReFine says something are very similar.

On jobs, the Institute of Directors said 64,000 jobs could be created from shale gas. They were very blissful. It is likely to be 15,000 at the height of fracking if we let them drill thousands of wells. Set that against job losses in farming, food and tourism.

What price your health and that of your children’s. Fracking will leave vast quantities of toxic waste underground. This dwarfs plastic pollution. Is this the legacy we want to leave our children and grandchildren. Are you happiest that people will think of our generation as the dirtiest ever?


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Photo: DrillOrDrop

8.24pm: Panel summing up – Kevin Hollinrake MP

Mr Hollinrake recommends people should put their faith in engineers who wrote the Royal Society report.

I have lived here all my life, there is no way in the world, I would take an irresponsible risk and put the lives of my family in jeopardy, he says.

I have a concern about the capacity to regulate at scale. But we have one well and that well won’t be fracked until October. The roll-out will be very slow, he says, because of the regulation and planning.

The key issue is what enters the water courses and the air and affects the seismicity. If materials do not enter these channels then we are not at risk. H2S is not to do with fracking, it is conventional gas.

We import 45% of our gas now, 70% by 2030. Our energy security is important. We have taken LNG from Russia. Centrica has signed a gas contract taking 9% of our gas by 2021. We also import from Qatar and Norway. There is an energy security issue that we need to solve.

Well density is being considered in the minerals plan for North Yorkshire. If the inspector does not support that, I will not support it. I think there should be national limits.

At the moment, we are guessing about is this worthwhile. We should take a cautious step forward.

Is INEOS going to buy their way into the government. I am not the government, he says. I am not for sale, nor would I ever be. I want to make things better, not for personal gain.

I do not believe there will be devastation. There have been various studies on the impact of fracking that have found no evidence of water contamination. Every US presidential candidate, except Bernie Sanders, supported shale gas continuation. Do we really believe the US president would support something damaging?

The water problems in the US were in one town. It is contested what happened. I am willing it could have been poor practice. I do not believe it would happen in the UK.

In the UK, the producer would pick up the tab if there was contamination. If they went bust, there is a producer fund.

Government overruling local decisions is how planning works. Local decisions have to meet national policy. In Lancashire, planners had recommended approval. You cannot isolate national from local need, either as a parliamentarian or local council.

The decision  on fracking was taken in parliament. He says there is a shale gas licence in his village.

If producers don’t meet their obligations, should they be fined or shut down, Mr Hollinrake asks. Absolutely he says.

We should move away plastics, But most of us use plastics in our lives. If there is no demand, there will be no plastics.

Ethane for plastic is from 0-20% of what comes out of the ground. The rest goes into the commercial market.

On Scotland, Mr Hollinrake says the decision had more to do with politics than science.

On sustainable development, Mr Hollinrake says the UK is pushing ahead with renewables. We are phasing out coal probably by 2020. The reality is that only 15% is from renewables. Fossil fuels will remain in the mix for several decades. Gas is the cleanest fossil fuel.

We need to look at the science. We have monitoring going on. It looks air, water and seismicity. If it can’t be regulated, I will be the first to call for a moratorium.


8.22pm: Speaker against the motion

The speaker asks about sustainable development. One of the key principals, supported by all political parties, is the precautionary principal. We may not need to take the risk of shale gas fracking. The scope of renewable energy and energy conservation are growing. Why do we need to take the risk. It is against the precautionary principal. It breaches our sustainability agenda.

8.21pm: Speaker against the motion

The speaker asks if the regulations are so robust, why has Scotland, Ireland and Wales said no to fracking.

8.18pm: Speaker for the motion – Alan Linn, Third Energy

Alan Linn, of Third Energy, is given the chance to speak again. There is no difference in the gas, whether it is fracked or not. The fracked gas is deeper. The conventional gas contains H2S, it always has, he says. We also know the fracked gas has zero H2S.W

I have worked in the industry for many years, he says, including the US. The regulations in the UK are the strictest. It is our intention to be a good neighbour. It is not our intention to blow Ryedale up. That is the worst thing we could do. Doing things unsafely is not sustainable. We want to do things safely.

Everyone on site at Kirby Misperton wears an H2S detector. The concerns can be put to rest.

8.16pm: Speaker against the motion

The speaker says the greatest regulation is paying for mistakes. The government of Pennsylvania told us last year the average fine against violations was about $5,000. A third of the active wells had problems and no-one was being punished.

The speaker also says the people who bought licences in the Pickering area want the gas to make plastics – not for home heating. There is no shortage of plastic, the speaker says.

8.13pm: Speaker against the motion

The speaker welcomes the debate. But he says actions matter more than words. He says the Bishop said the debate was evidence of local democracy. Tell that to the people who were overruled by the Conservative government, he says.

The speaker says he was more impressed by Mr Hill.. There is evidence across the world, he says, of the dangers of fracking. He asks how do you regulate a well 1km underground. You cannot regulate what is going on underground at that depth.

He says Mr Hollinrake’s presentation is weak – if we are to rely on that it is a none starter.

8.11pm: Speaker for the motion- Sir James Bevan, Environment Agency

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Sir James Bevan. Photo: DrillOrDrop

Sir James Bevan says he as been to Preston New Road and talked to communities. I don’t think it is fair to accuse us of being absent. People working for the agency in Lancashire are passionate about the environment. They are absolutely committed to protecting the environment they serve.

8.10pm: Speaker against the motion – Gayzer Frackman

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Photo: DrillOrDrop

Gayzer Frackman says he has witnessed in Lancashire at Preston New Road a lack of enforcement, breaches on an almost daily basis.

We have no faith in the Environment Agency or the HSE because at Preston New Road you are proven to be ineffective, he says. My community bear witness.

The EA nor the HSE did not attend the public inquiry on Preston New Road. Will you turn up at the Roseacre Wood inquiry to answer questions about our supposed regulators, he asks.

8.09pm: Speaker against the motion

The speaker asks what regulation can the government put in place as insurance in perpetuity for protection against problems.

8.07pm: Speaker for the motion- Tony Almond, HSE

Tony Almond is invited to speak again to defend the HSE. He says the goals are set in the health and safety regulations. One of the key one is no unregulated releases. When we have talked about regulations, we have talked about the agencies. We haven’t talked about how the regulators work together. The EA and HSE has had a working together agreement since 2012.

8.05pm: Speaker against the motion – David Lloyd Williams

Former county councillor, Mr Lloyd Williams, says the regulation of the conventional industry was as good as it could be. When something goes wrong, when there is an accident, what regulator can prevent what happen underground. Can this house really support the regulation we asked tonight, I fear not, he says.

8.04pm: Speaker for the motion

The speaker says the debate has not discussed the good that would come from fracking and the benefits to the economy. The US shale industry meant everyone was better off and no-one suffered.

The regulations sound extremely good, he says.

8.03pm: Speaker against the motion

The speaker says fracking is indisputably unsafe so regulation cannot make it safe. Who would go to prison if fracking when something goes wrong, he asks.

8.01pm: Speaker for the motion – Sir James Bevan, Environment Agency

Sir James Began is given another two minutes to address criticism. He says he doesn’t recognise the alleged failings of the EA. If there were an expansion of fracking, I am confident my agency would be able to robustly regulate the industry, he says. This is because he cares about regulating and because the funding would come from permit funds.

7.59pm: Speaker against the motion

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Photo: DrillOrDrop

The campaign 20 years ago against the generating station was nothing compared with what INEOS will bring to North Yorkshire, the speaker says.

INEOS is a big company. We need to be aware what the government is allowing to happen. If Kevin Hollinrake has any influence he needs to make sure we are not sold down the river. We have to stop thinking that this is like the generating station. Ordinary gas is one thing. Shale gas is another matter.

7.58pm: Speaker in favour of the motion

The speaker said he remembered concerns that turned out to be unfounded about the generating station. I think this may happen again, he says. There is a case for doing an exploration well, to make the evidence, to allow people to make conclusions. At the moment we are all guessing.

7.56pm: Speaker against the motion

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Photo: DrillOrDrop

The speaker says there is no legislation that require a distance between homes and shale gas sites or a maximum limit on the density of well pads.

The speaker adds that the operator of a UK oil well, monitored by the EA, did not carry out baseline checks and yet still received an environmental permit.

7.54pm: Speaker in favour of the motion – Lorraine Allanson

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Lorraine Allanson. Photo: DrillOrDrop

Ms Allanson says everyone has survived the scares of hydrogen sulphide at the Knapton Generator Station. She says there have been zero deaths from fracking, despite more than 2 milliion frack jobs.

30,000 people die from fuel poverty. Seven people an hour died from fuel poverty in the previous cold spell. It is a disgrace that these people cannot afford to live, she says. How are we going to look after those people. How do you regulator for fuel poverty.

7.50pm: Speaker against the motion

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Photo: DrillOrDrop

The speaker says she has been examining regulations at Kirby Misperton and other sites. Hydrogen sulphide gas has leaked from this site twice. The EA has one monitor on the Kirby Misperton site. The reason the EA could not detect hydrogen sulphide because the wind was blowing in the wrong direction. How is that gold standard regulation, she asks.

She says she has been in touch with 10 agencies about emergency evacuation plans. She is still waiting, after 2 months of asking. Third Energy says it has a telephone tree. Is that gold standard regulation, she asks.

The fire service has no scope to deal with unexploded gas. The fire service have a very small number people who will be able bring out staff on the site and the local community. What is the plan for Third Energy in the event of a hydrogen sulphide gas leak? What is the explanation for the leaks.

7.48pm: Speaker in favour of the motion- Alan Linn, chief operating officer of Third Energy

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Alan Linn, chief operating officer for Third Energy. Photo: DrillOrDrop

Mr Linn says biocides are not used in fracking. They are used in other parts of business but not in fracking. What we use in fracking are chemicals that are safe for human consumption, he says.

The regulations are very, very strong, he says.

Another set of regulation introduced by the government to check everything. We do not mark our own homework. They don’t always let us know they are coming. We have been operating in the Vale of Pickering for 20 years. Fracking is not a big deal.

7.45pm: Speaker against the motion – Roderick Robinson

Mr Robinson says he has been working for 40 years on pesticides. He has worked with the EA. I have a severe problem with fracking because of real legal issues. It has a risk of breaking the law. He is prevented by law from applying biocides to fractured geology. Why is the fracking industry allowed to do this, he asks.

Triocene, a biocides, is planned for Third Energy’s well. Mr Robinson said he did research on this and it has been banned. Another chemical is registered as a lubricant when it is a biocide. How do the regulators work with the situation in which the companies are breaking the law.

7.44pm: Speaker in favour of the motion – Tony Almond, Health and Safety Executive

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Tony Almond. Photo: DrillOrDrop

Mr Almond says experienced engineers regulate on and offshore wells. We have a strong regulatory regime. Read about all of the regime, he says.

7.42pm: Speaker against the motion

The speaker says it comes down to a matter of trust. If I have to choose between a politican and a chartered engineer it is no contest.

The best regulations in the world are useless unless they can be checked. Is the government capable of ensuring that checking can be done. In my view it is not. We will have to rely on self regulation and look what happened with the banks.

7.40pm: Speaker in favour of the motion – James Bevan, Environment Agency chief executive

Mr Bevan says regulation for fracking is safe. If you want to frack you have to show it will not affect soil, air, water, wildlife. If you can’t you will not be allowed to frack, he says.

We will monitor and check, he says. We do not allow people to mark their own homework. We have done 15 inspections of the Kirby Misperton site. If people do not abide by the conditions, they will be required to put things right.

I believe frackng regulation is safe is because of the people who work for the Environment Agency

What motivates them is the desire to keep people safe.

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Photo: DrillOrDrop

7.38: Bishop Jones

Bishop Jones asks people to say who wants to comment or ask a question.

Around 20 people raise their hands.


7.21pm: Presentation by Mike Hill

180308 Pickering 6Mr Hill, a chartered engineer, says he has no career interests in fracking. He says he has a duty to inform the debate and answer questions as honestly as he can. He urges people to verify facts and come to an opinion on the facts.

Mr Hill says the Royal Society report made 10 recommendations which he agrees with. Only one out of 10 had been implemented, he says. The government has accepted all 10 but that is not implementation.

The government is not listening, they overrule democracy, they smear whistleblowers and they push things through, Mr Hill says.

There will be deaths from this industry, he says. The Infrastructure Act made it easier to frack and not safer for the public.

Fracking is re-starting. Now is the time for action. The coulds, shoulds, have not happened.

We need an independent inspection strategy, Mr Hill says.

He quotes the Environment Agency that flowback fluid will be recycled. There will be no limits for the reuse of the flowback fluid, the EA says.

Analysis of the contents of flowback fluid from the Preese Hall well found contaminants at many times the level of safe drinking. That had not been recycled.

The EA gets the operator to mark their own homework and that is a conflict of interest, Mr Hill says. The EA at Preston New Road says there is no way for the fracking waste to get up to the aquifer.

Mr Hill fracking requires the drilling of thousands of boreholes. The only thing that prevents contamination of aquifers is well integrity.

The EA have minimal experience of fracking. They are behind the curve, Mr Hill says. They are reliant on residents to monitor, he adds.

So much for a robust Environment AGency.

The Health and sAfety Executive says the operators are responsible for managing risks and setting goals and that makes regulation robust, Mr Hill reports.

The HSE has made no unannounced visits to eight shale gas sites in Lancashire. The HSE has made two announced visits in 13 months.

The US has a much stricter regime than the UK. The HSE still relies on operators to mark their own homework. Well reports are faxed by the operator once a week, Mr Hill.

Damage to the Preese Hall well was not reported to the HSE, Mr Hill says, because it was not a notifiable incident. So much for a robust regime.

On the Oil and Gas Authority agreed it should have a strategy. It still in draft form. The onshore strategy should focus on viability, Mr Hill says. It should concentrate on safety, Mr Hill. It is an absolute disgrace, he says.

The Cullen Report into the Piper Alpha disaster recommended breaking the link between the industry and its cheerleader. There is a conflict of interest between the OGA and the industry, Mr Hill says.

The British Geological Survey is not a regulator, although it is referred to as one. The work in North Yorkshire study is not a baseline and is not a regulatory requirement. This is their own words, Mr Hill says.

The baseline in the Vale of Pickering, cannot be relied on.

Jobs: Mr Hills questions the estimate of 64,000. He asks how much gas is imported from Russia. He asks whether there is an evacuation plan.

In conclusion, he says, this is not robust regulation. The government’s arguments on regulation in tatters. This is putting people’s lives at risk.


7.04pm: Presentation by Kevin Hollinrake MP

180308 Pickering 4Kevin Hollinrake says fracking has been a key word in his life since being elected as the local MP.

He says there was cross-party support for fracking in a debate in the Infrastructure Act.

He says there are several regulatory agencies responsible for fracking: the Environment Agency, the Health and Safety Executive, mineral planning authority (North Yorkshire County Council) and the Oil and Gas Authority.

Mr Hollinrake says there are nine well pads in Ryedale and there have been decades of experience of oil and gas exploration.

There are permits that have to be met, he says, with limits on the depth of fracking, rules on casings, what chemicals can be used (which have to be disclosed), disposal of waste water.

There are national regulations on air and water quality and seismicity before shale gas exploration can start.

Mr Hollinrake says he is not a scientist but it is important that we look at the science. The scientists say it is quite clear that this can be done safely.

The Environment Agency said “We believe the Environment Agency has the right regulatiory controls to regulate the sector”.

The Royal Society report of 2012 said shale gas can be operated safely if best practices are enforced through regulation, Mr Hollinrake.

A book from the British Geological Survey says “if scientists are listened to and the results are there to see we get the best of both worlds”.

A report for the Scottish Government says the regulatory framework is in place.

Mr Hollinrake says if we cannot carry out this operation in a way that protects the environment I would be the first to oppose it.

“I have tried to make sense of all the different arguments. I have not simply taken the government line.

“I have also fought for additional protections”.

Mr Hollinrake says fracking must be compatible with the beauty of Ryedale and its industries.

He describes how he went to shale gas areas in Pennsylvania. He says the industry in the US got ahead of the regulators at the beginning. Where things went wrong was because the regulations were not in place.

He says he has written a report, posted on his website, which looks at every single aspect of fracking, allowing readers to experience what he saw and heard.

Looking at everything we saw in Pennsylvania convinced us that we could regulate fracking safely, Mr Hollinrake says.

Open ponds allowed in the US would not be allowed in the UK. In the US, fracking is allowed at any depth. The minimum is 1km in the UK. We don’t allow reinjection of waste water. There is no maximum proliferation of wellpads in the US. You could see them every hundred yards, Mr Hollinrake says.

In the UK, I have championed independent monitoring by the BGS at Kirby Misperton. Ryedale will not look like Texas, Mr Hollinrake. We have a maximum of 10 for every 100 square km. One well pad every three miles is what we have now. We will not see industrialisation of Ryedale.

I believe it is safe. I have an open mind. If my position changes I would be the first to say this should not happen in Ryedale.


7pm: Sell-out debate begins

The chair of the debate, Bishop James Jones, congratulates Kirbymoorside Town Council on putting on the debate. He says it shows that local democracy is not dead.

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6.45pm: Hall almost full

Almost a full house with 15 minutes to go before the start.

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Photo: DrillOrDrop


6.30pm: People beginning to arrive at the debate

Half an hour before the debate, at Lady Lumley School in Pickering, the audience begins to arrive.

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Photo: DrillOrDrio


Reporting from this event was made possible by individual donations from DrillOrDrop readers.

70 replies »

  1. Very simple. Looking at the tally from Ruth there are more speakers against than for, yet you still cry “foul”. Perhaps the chair should have made sure there were two antis to everyone supporting, and there was a mob in the audience to shout down those in support?

    Qualifications may be your idea of an expert (in which case you have a problem with the antis involved) but many do not use that as a sole indicator, and those Yorkshire people I know are bright enough to work that out.

    I am not interested in winding you up KatT. I simply disagree with you. I seem to remember Mike Hill, at another meeting, telling the audience to DYOR- perhaps this one can do so now?

    • There is another aspect of the whole fracking debacle that has nothing on the surface to do with the actual processes themselves, discredited now they are, but the way in which the issue has been handled by central government and their puppets in the operators and police and private security.

      The most alarming aspect to that is the apparent increase in police aggression towards protesters and indeed the same aggression from the operators workers and their security?

      You may ask yourself why and how this has come about?

      Perhaps this interview with Barry Trower on the use of the TETRA device will help to explain one of the darker aspects of, what is becoming apparent, to be a social engineering experiment.

      The TETRA device is the communication device that is in the ear and on the chest or hip of the police officers.Look at any video and you will see devices and ear pieces on each officer.

      These are microwave devices and are used ostensibly to communicate anywhere between officers and their controllers, but such devices can also be used to modify mood and emotion and to induce aggression or any other mental state, the side effect of this is well known to promote cancers and lead to permanent personality changes.

      ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=67gXOnT5zkM )

      So you see it is not only the public and the protesters who are under attack from the fracking and associated avoidance of the word operations. it is the police too.

      It has always been a puzzle why the fracking debacle has been allowed to go on for so long without producing anything and why in the locations they choose and why so much time and money has been thrown at a situation that has not produced anything but division and outrage and social change and stress.

      Perhaps there are other agendas being carried out and like all good conflicts, the government attitude is as always, don’t let a good conflict go to waste, exploit it fully for whatever multiple purpose that can be applied?

      Perhaps this serves to explain at least one of the reasons for such apparently unproductive processes, and that may be because other agendas are being experimented with at the same time? The next question, is how much of this is known about by those who control such things and are the operators at a high level well aware of the experiment?

      Interesting questions?

          • Always interesting to see what loose cannon issues you guys need to make fun of to try and defuse a potentially volatile subject?
            PS it’s “fluoride” btw and it’s in your water, your mouthwash and toothpaste and in bottled water, it was first used in nazi death camp water to dumb down the inmates and make them quiescent and to prevent an uprising against extermination.
            It clearly works efficiently for you guys too.
            I never met such a bunch of zombie like somnambulists sleep walking through a manufactured crisis before?
            Always a pleasure! Have a nice quiescent day!

            • Hmmm, Well done btw? TETRA as a sledge hammer overkill device to counteract fluoride Prozac effects? That is an interesting admission isn’t it?

              Shame it causes cancer and violent personality changes? But I suppose those characteristics are quite handy if you want to intimidate and bully a Prozac dumbed down populace into submission?
              Good thinking hewes!

            • Phil C
              No need to say ‘you guys,, it’s just me on these issues I think.

              So let’s see …hmmmm what does Phil C say ….

              Acid fracking discussion, leads to Flouride conspiracy, Nazi death camps etc etc!

              Discussion re fracking in village hall leads to micro wave behaviour modification conspiracy theory. Government control etc etc.

              For me, I have not seen any aggression from police, security, operators, protestors or the general public at sites I have been to.

              I have seen people get angry with Tom Pickering ( all radio free ) at meetings, but not all.

              I guess Third energy workers will be wondering about this over their cornflakes today. Are they, without the benefit of these radios, agressive to the people they know and work with and subject to some mind control experiment? Or are they selectively agressive to protestors, but not anyone else.

              Only kidding

              We should address the issues raised in the DOD post perhaps rather than spinning off into conspiracy theory.

              Now ….
              does Kirby Misperton need an evacuation plan and if so, who has the responsibility to produce it ( it’s not TE if that’s a clue ). Why has the Village not got one ( but Pickering has a plan ), and why the dept in charge of such plans have failed to reply to the person at the meeting who says ( or the report says ) has contacted 10 authorities with no reply. How come no one answered that point at the meeting ( the HSE were there, they have an opinion on the matter ) or their reply is not reported, what is the Parish Council doing to address the issue? Where is the Flamingo Land Evacuation plan? How does that tie into the County Plan.

              So, happy to get on with that factual stuff, but also happy to compare conspiracy theories that conflict as well.

            • Just having some fun on a Saturday hewes, remember fun? Pre fracking wasn’t it? A bit rare these days, but always welcome?

              By “you guys” i mean the general “side” (GBH terminology) that the anti anti’s seem to occupy? Similar to the standard “anti” or “mob” epithet which attempts to say everyone who objects to fracking and its attendant avoidances of the word, is in some sort of centralised organisation that can be so easily derogatory labelled?

              The truth of course is most of us just don’t like bullies and liars and will stand up for the environment and our children and grandchildren until they are big enough and informed enough to stand up for themselves.

              But of course, the intention to limit a post to one tiny aspect is just logic chopping, since the whole fracking debacle and its related avoidances of the word, are much wider in scope and range than mere minimalised subject limitations to divide the issue into easily manageable bite sized chunks.

              The whole subject includes government and its aggressively compromised and electronically stimulated, martin would say “excited” microwaved police force.

              The truth of the processes of the operators, their apparent immunity to the law and the regulations and the planning conditions, the truth of protection of the environment for everyone, to Fracking down to the truth about clean water depletion and toxic waste disposal and where and at what volume, and how treated, which still has not been answered? And why the government say in effect “we don’t know, we have not assessed these vitally important issues and cannot apply gold standard regulations to something we know nothing about, and have no comment, better ask someone else”?

              So you see there is almost no government, police, social, protection, financial and operator issue that is not covered by the subject and i will continue to expand the issues into whatever avenue reveal the actual truth of what is being done to the tax payer? That includes protecting you, in case you hadn’t noticed?

              There is in effect, in these matters, here on Drill Or drop, a damage limitation team, either employed as such or self appointed? Of which i would assume you either represent or support such an entity, (you see how accusations work? Isn’t it an obvious strategy isn’t it?), like to accuse and denigrate and challenge anything that is not within the carefully managed limited agenda, as you say here, with debased terminology in order to imply such things as, lets see what you write here….oh yes “conspiracy theory” thats a good one isn’t it? Such an accusation implies the perceived opponent is somehow mentally unstable or of doubtful trustworthiness? And it is also a very useful epithet to accuse anyone of raising an issue “you guys” don’t like at all as being “conspiracy theory”?

              So you effectively have accused me of being mentally inferior to yourself are you not? Nothing in fact, could be further from the truth, since you guys have come up with al sorts of similar accusations yourselves, such as “paid professional activists”? NIMBYS? Paid and funded by the Russians? Layabouts? Unemployed Hippies? Get a jobbies? Greeny Gangsters? Communists? Terrorists? Tree Huggers? Swampies? Tripple lockers? And so on and so and so on ad infinitum? You see how the whole denigration system works and can so easily be returned with interest?

              All these terms are derogatory so i do the same, what i find fascinating is how much that is objected to in return posts such as yours, whereas similar activity by your colleagues is ignored if not supported and complemented upon or not commented on? What does that tell us?

              TETRA is not a conspiracy theory, did you look at the videos? Who is Barry Trower? Look it up! And nor is fluoride in water and its use by the Nazis a conspiracy theory, did the Nazis care so much about the teeth of the inmates in the extermination camps?
              Do you look at a label on toothpaste which states it contains fluoride and say ”i don’t believe it, that is a conspiracy theory?”

              Fun, isn’t it?

              No spin, just something “not to be addressed”? Blinkers rule UK.

              Right, now that is out of the way, what was your last point?

              “does Kirby Misperton need an evacuation plan and if so, who has the responsibility to produce it ( it’s not TE if that’s a clue ). Why has the Village not got one ( but Pickering has a plan ), and why the dept in charge of such plans have failed to reply to the person at the meeting who says ( or the report says ) has contacted 10 authorities with no reply. How come no one answered that point at the meeting ( the HSE were there, they have an opinion on the matter ) or their reply is not reported, what is the Parish Council doing to address the issue? Where is the Flamingo Land Evacuation plan? How does that tie into the County Plan.”

              Lets see? Yes, Third Energy in co-ordination with Council, HSE and police and emergency services, Pickering will scare everyone away and cause them to evacuate, who are the department and have you written to them and why has the government not claimed they “don’t know”? I don’t know why anything was or was not reported, “Flaming Go Third Energy” would provide the ideal solution to the Famingo Land situation. Ask the relevant County Plan organisers.

              Keep drinking the water.

            • Phil C

              I cannot follow you up that hill to take the moral high ground you seem to have taken.

              When you come back down, happy to discuss any issues outwith Flouride, mind bending radios, Tesla Towers and so on in detail.

              Re the ‘evacuation plan’, as noted in previous posts, if there can be a toxic gas release which requires evacuation of the village ( and due to its proximity ) Flamingo land, that would be the job of the Yorkshire Council to co ordinate it.

              But if there is a toxic release, the advice is, to stay indoors, close all windows and await the Emergency Services arrival. This is the advice given out by HEPS ( Humberside ) for events from the many chemical plants on the Humber to the East of Hull. It was also the advice given by Third Energy to the lady complaining of a smell in a past post on DOD.

              Evacuation is not the first action to take with a toxic gas cloud or unignited gas cloud. Your house is a toxic refuge!

              But, that there is no plan, would indicate there is no need for one specific to KM outwith the generic plan which covers the area for those events which require evacuation ( which for Pickering is most likely flooding ).

              That this subject keeps cropping up is of interest to me. The Parish Council should have this nailed.

              1. What are the credible scenarios for gas release from the KM site, toxic, unignited gas and ignited gas.
              2. What are the consequences of those scenarios?
              3. Do those scenarios require KM to have a toxic gas * in any form ) ER plan?

              This is a job for the HSE in conjunction with Third Energy to determine what health hazards affect humans offsite.

              If not, what is the procedure for smell reporting, is there one, is it followed and are the results communicated to those affected. What actions are taken to reduce smells and what JOIs are in place.

              That comes under the EA

              It’s all nailed on down here re power stations ( gas and coal ) and rendering plants with power stations attached ( LPG for heavier than air gas clouds ).

              It’s seems somewhat diliatory up in the Vale of Pickering. I do not know why, but always happy to hear from someone up there who may need help,to sort it. Third Energy have not covered themselves in glory. in This respect so I do sympathise with the doubt people have as to their competence to frack, even though they can speak to the operators ( the chaps who are plant and control room operators, not the management ) as they are embedded in the community.

              Finally, Phil C, we have never met to discuss, nor have we discussed on here your intelligence. I have never mentioned it or called it into question. What you infer is up to you, what people can imagine or infer is limitless, what we actually think is not, but should you ever ask, I am happy to answer.

            • This is fun hewes? Dear oh dear, you do hold grudges dont you?

              “The past is a memory, the future is a dream, all we have is the now” – The plagiarists quotation book.

              “I cannot follow you up that hill to take the moral high ground you seem to have taken.
              When you come back down, happy to discuss any issues outwith Flouride, mind bending radios, Tesla Towers and so on in detail.”

              More hooks and barbs? Dear oh dear, what was it about TETRA that caused this little furore? I made no personal comments originally and have only returned like for like, and then you get all shirty? (Did i spell that right? Oh well, it will do?)

              Just in case you hadn’t noticed, i did discuss those issues, look where that got us? Nothing but silly remarks? Just an excuse for point and shoot isnt it?

              I really dont have much time today to bother to ascend up or descend down from your imaginary moral high ground?

              Anyway the view is still nice from right here and i intend to keep it that way, but anyway the immoral high ground is rather overcrowded with CEO’s at the moment demanding the tax payer to bow down and worship them and promising the earth? Shame really because the earth belongs to everyone all ready and cannot be bought or sold? Not that such a concept is capable by them? But perhaps it keeps them amused and out of the courts for a while?

              Oh yes, why would i ask you any questions hewes? I have seen the sort of hooked and barbed responses to comments i made about the TETRA and the use of flouride and hydrofluoric acid fracking and i am no more enlightened by those responses than when i started? Par for the course i suppose?

              What else? Oh yes:

              “we have never met to discuss, nor have we discussed on here your intelligence. I have never mentioned it or called it into question. What you infer is up to you, what people can imagine or infer is limitless, what we actually think is not, but should you ever ask, I am happy to answer.”

              Works in reverse doesnt it? Why cannot what we think be limitless btw? Isn’t that just a matter of having no appreciable boundaries and an insatiable desire to learn about everyone and everything? Works for me? There is no finally, everything is an eternal now, time and space are illusions, did you not know that?

              Anyway, i have lunch preparation to do and i am promised some help today, so that will be fun.

              Have a great Sunday, and don’t worry so much? Its all fun really, Enjoy! Enjoy!

              PS Thanks for the info on emergency, but without fracking we wont need it will we?

  2. I guess if the couldn’t find half a dozen people in support it’s not unreasonable they gave those two a couple more goes Martin.

    It’s a bit sad though that when there is a local debate but the only people who can be found to speak out in favour are the head of Third Energy and the head of the EA. Hardly locals are they?

    Still the result was never in doubt was it?

  3. I’ve just scanned the notes KatT. There were some very good question’s and challenges put to the industry and EA reps. Their answers were poor to non-existent.

    • … and the statement ‘The US shale industry meant everyone was better off and no-one suffered’ could hardly be less true. How can trust and respect be anticipated when such deceitful claims are made?

  4. Oh my god well there are 10 mins of my life I won’t get back.
    It comes round to the NIMBYs simply running scared that an exploratory well will prove to the majority of the population ie 99.9% that fracking won’t bring death and destruction.
    It’s going to go ahead no matter how many protests they have and no matter how big a group they pretend to be.
    Suck it up little lambchops.

    • Problem is (for you GBK) they’re looking beyond the exploratory well. It may be a non event and TE may not even find a buyer but it’s what the industry is banking on that matters – what they’d like to make happen (if they can).

    • Well that was 0.5 of a second I won’t care to remember reading that little contribution?
      Tell me GBH, isn’t it the frackers who want to suck it all up? Or is that too logical?
      Oh dear, there I go again, spoiling all that empty rhetoric?
      Such fun!
      Have a great weekend children everywhere!

  5. Frackman and Mike Hill locals, refracktion?

    Dancing on the head of a pin-again. Just surprised no claims of the Church being biased.

    No, the result was never in doubt but still a useful exercise. Interesting though that the antis who whinge constantly about lack of dialogue criticise when it happens. Is it because they are generally depressed and just need a whinge?

    Spring is in the air, April could be a gas. We are recorded at our peak of happiness-whatever that is. Enjoy.

  6. Good that Mike Hill and Frackman could offer direct observations and experience – the former as expert consultant with inside knowledge of Britain’s first fracking effort at Preese Hall (and of Cuadrillas plans for that region), and the latter as a member of the public whose house was impacted by induced seismic activity from PH.

  7. Oh Kevin Hollingrake! ‘Do we really believe the US president would support something damaging?’, you say. Ever heard of Donald Trump?? Even that little bird got it right, the one who settled on Bernie Sanders’ lectern while he was still a candidate, before the Democrats made their disastrous choice for Hilary Clinton. Shame on Barack Obama, shame especially on Hilary Clinton for her long-time support of the American fracking industry at home an abroad. Oh Jeremy Corbyn, please move in fast to No 10.

  8. Yes, PhilipP-good that anyone could offer direct experience to the debate. So, what are the antis whinging about? (eg. refracktion’s post of 9.15pm??) Or is it that you antis only want a one sided discussion? I think I have answered my own question.

    It may be the norm, but when the antis continuously try and weight any discussion, or drown out those who disagree, it simply demonstrates their own insecurity. Maybe that’s why support is dropping.

    • I see you just whinging about the ‘antis’ Martin. Attempting to make another group label stick. Such is your method. How about sticking to the issues?

    • Martin I wasn’t whinging, I was laughing at your lot. We antis would love a proper debate with you anti antis but there seem to too few of you so you have to have the same people on again and again at events like this. I remember at the Harrogate debate where they didn’t allow multiple questions from the same person there was only one pro speaker and even she seemed to be quite anti when you’d unpicked what she actually asked.

      Now then, at what point last night was anyone drowned out Martin?

      I am glad you at least acknowledge that support for fracking is dropping though.

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