policing

Comments sought on protest policing guidance

190401 Misson protest Tina English 2

Protest at IGas shale gas site at Springs Road, Misson, 1 April 2019. Photo: Alan Finney

A long-awaited consultation is underway on new guidance for policing protests.

Three years after a commitment to review the advice to officers, the College of Policing is seeking comments on two new documents, which it says reflect lessons from recent protests.

The consultation invites feedback from people and organisations who have an interest in protests.

The documents say the starting point for policing public protest is the presumption in favour of peaceful assembly, set out in Article 11 of the European Convention on Human Rights.

The Public Order Authorised Professional Practice, from the College of Policing, makes clear that obstruction of a highway, frequently used during protests against oil and gas developments, does not make a public assembly unlawful. Only unreasonable obstructions of the highway are unlawful, it says.

The document divides people attending protests into ‘supporters’, ‘protesters’ and ‘activists’. It says the use of the blanket term ‘protesters’ “may lead to incorrect assumptions”.

The document says:

“Police should educate themselves regarding the individuals, groups, and groups within groups attending a protest in order to help identify a proportionate policing response.”

The Protest Operational Advice Document, from the National Police Chiefs’ Council, replaces guidance from 2015 on policing of onshore oil and gas operations.

It has sections on the role of police liaison officers, protester removal teams and evidence and intelligence gathering.

It also has advice on recording the costs of policing protest.

horse-hill-160225-david-burr.jpg

Protest outside the Horse Hill oil exploration site in Surrey, 25 February 2016. Photo: David Burr/Alamy Live News

The police monitoring group, Netpol, has been calling for a revision of guidance on policing anti-fracking protests.

Its coordinator, Kevin Blowe, said:

“It has taken three years of concerted pressure, with the fantastic support of former Green MEP Keith Taylor, for the National Police Chiefs Council to fulfil the promise it made to Netpol in March 2016 to review its guidance on the policing of anti-fracking protests.

“We were given another promise of some advanced warning on its launch, so it is disappointing we were only informed about the consultation late on a Friday afternoon after it had already begun.

“Netpol is planning a detailed response, including a legal opinion from the Netpol Lawyers Group that represents many of the most experienced protest solicitors and barristers in the country. We remain concerned, however, that there is insufficient advice for local forces on the particular human rights issues for long-term protests.

“This matters because the revised guidance will become a benchmark the public can use to decide if their local police are meeting their legal obligations to both facilitate and protect the right to protest.

“We plan to support other anti-fracking campaigners to make submissions too, based on their own experiences of what has often been extremely oppressive frontline policing.”

The consultation ends on 27 September 2019. Netpol is hosting a live Facebook Q&A on the consultation at 6pm on Wednesday 7 August 2019

67 replies »

  1. Dear College of Policing:

    Arrest all with facial hair, sandals, and silly hats. And, that includes males!

    Pretty clear guidelines to follow. Simples.

    • MARTIN ,

      THANKS for excluding Jack and MOST others from your , reasons to arrest guidlines for the Police .

      The 99% of the population that DON’T fit in to that category, that protest against the introduction of the Toxic Shale industry within the UK, I m sure will be raising a glass to you this evening.

      Once again THANKS , Jack

      • MARTINS LAW,

        WATCH OUT ……. Prince Harry .

        Stay well away from ALL …… Oil and Gas fields.

        Under MARTINS law , you may be thrown in to the Tower Of London ……

        • Yep-and JC, Big Green Jack!

          Looking at the photos’ on DoD my recommendations should keep the police busy enough.

          When we have another 20k officers, then phase 2. Trade description infringers (Liberal DEMOCRATS) and repeat driving offenders, also known as BMW owners.

          Careful though Jack, those who inflate the follower numbers via multiple identities are in phase 3! Big Green Jack should be okay, but not Big blue Jack or baby blue jack. Sorry, but Martins law is the law, even if that will increase the policing travel budget and anti social hour shift work.

          • Martin. You mean the 20,000 officers who may or may not appear? We have already lost 22,000 officers under this government, plus many civilian police workers. Retirement is due to reduce numbers over the next few years too. Then of course there is the fact that many police stations have been closed. More creative accounting by the Tories to grab the headlines for a gullible public.

            • I know, Pauline, and there are not enough lockers at the training places!!

              Heaven forbid, such major issues. We had better give up now.

              Mind you, once they start to appear, I trust they will not be sitting in police stations but making use of modern technology which makes such rather redundant. We could also close Costa Coffee at the motorway services and that would get them out on the road.

    • So Martin, that comment is both anti Semitic and anti Muslim too! Anyone else you would like to insult before the race relations board come to take you away?

      • Ahh, but in reality it is not. The reality is not your generalisation. You need to spend some time in the M.East.

        Strange, blinkered existence, some live.

        By the way-red diesel may not come from the Red Sea. Always trying to help.

        • The Reality Martian is your strange dismally ignorant blinkered generalisation that displays such a total disregard for the sensitivities of religious, racial and ethnic and social diversities across the world.
          [Edited by moderator]
          Not to mention the fact that your comment is extremely ignorant, intolerant of anyone who chooses to grow a beard, which is an entirely natural process unless you had forgotten that you shaved this morning, and choice of clothes, hats, sandals or whatever form of dress people choose, is a freedom of choice and lifestyle that should be celebrated in a civilised society which should welcome diversity in all its forms.
          However your thoughtless prejudice seems to want to arrest all those who don’t or won’t match your narrow minded dismally ignorant stereotype.
          The mere fact that you came out with that arrogant arrant rubbish only goes to prove what i have said regularly on Drill or Drop, that such ignorant and unintelligent knee jerk reactions that are spouted with depressing regularity by the anti antis, only goes to show that we should not allow such attitudes anywhere near any choice of democratic process in this country, let alone how we choose to decide upon the next intelligent non polluting and climate change neutral processes that will decide our energy choices for the next generations, should they be so fortunate as to survive this present insane generations greed and warmongering.
          No Martian, wrong again. For your information, i spent close to thirty years abroad and particularly in the Middle East such as Saudi Arabia, Iraq and the Arab Emerates, where westerners are seen as necessary but unwelcome intruders and any comment such as yours would have put you in a prison very quickly and then Boris would extend your sentence to life through his usual diplomatic incompetence.
          No Martian, you should have thought twice before you typed that, but that is typical isnt it, since thinking seems to be a rare if extinct commodity amongst the anti antis for the last few years.
          And then of course in utter desperation, you frantically attempt dredge out your deceased little decaying list and think that by waving around the mere phrase of the utterly discredited dead weasel red diesel joke, you hope that gets you out of trouble??
          No Martian its dead and gone, you better bury that decaying smelly list it before the stink manages to pollute the Red Sea and further stink up the planet due to the climate change caused by exclusive use of fossil fuels as Exxon and Shell own scientists predicted would happen in the 1980’s.
          [Edited by moderator]
          Oh yes, and have a nice day.

          • Phil C. If Martin cares to inspect the numerous photos posted of the policing of fracking sites he’ll observe that a high proportion of the police officers employed there are sporting beards. It’s known as “fashion”. Whether or not he considers their hats to be silly is a matter of opinion. I don’t consider baseball caps to be an improvement, but maybe that’s just me. As far as sandals are concerned, I agree, the officers don’t wear sandals. I think you’ll find, most people attending fracking protests don’t wear sandals because of the danger of being trodden on by officers’ size 12s. All accidentally, of course and for our own safety.

            • Hi Pauline, yes, im sure there are many in all woks of life that sport beards and wear different clothing to Martians stereotypical narrow blinkered view. Dont the crews in the Royal Navy also have a dispensation to wear beards? I wonder how many politicians and industrial entrepreneurs wear beards?

              Doesnt Jim Ratcliffe have a beard!!??

              Funny isnt it?

            • Not to worry, Pauline. There can be exceptions allowed. Most laws do that!

              I actually noticed a policeman driving above 70mph on the motorway.

              However, that was in the real world.

              • Of course there are exceptions, Martin. That’s precisely why your original childishly generalised comment was so ridiculous.

                • I thought you had problems with the specifics, Pauline?

                  Just a little pointer-your opinion is owned by you. It doesn’t make it correct or universal. Hence your standing about outside PNR often out numbered by the police.

                  Or quoting from todays press:

                  “The overwhelming self-righteousness of ER in disrupting the lives of many people is coupled with the arrogant belief of many of its predominantly middle-class, graduate supporters that they are entitled to instruct other people who would otherwise not be intelligent enough to understand.”

                  Sounds very familiar.

                  Looks as if the silent majority will not be silent for much longer.

                • Hi Pauline, let’s have a little fun with Martians little quote, what was it, Daily Mail or something, you are aware that all such diatribes mererly reveal the bitterness and bile of the fact that ER and others are showing up the inconsistencies, the prejudice and the obfuscation of the fossil fuel industry gatekeepers. It is easily simply turned around to its source however and that opens the perspective wider to illustrate the true scope of the situation.

                  So all we have to do to open up that clearly narrow blinkered view is to change one single letter, and nothing else needs any change, see if you can spot it.

                  “The overwhelming self-righteousness of PR in disrupting the lives of many people is coupled with the arrogant belief of many of its predominantly middle-class, graduate supporters that they are entitled to instruct other people who would otherwise not be intelligent enough to understand.”

                  “Sounds very familiar.”

                  “Looks as if the silent majority will not be silent for much longer.”

                  Do you see? That could be played with endlessly back and forth, but in effect, all it really does is to display that the writer of that diatribe is no different than much of the anti anti comments we see on Drill or Drop, it only serves by presenting such a twisted over emotional content to excite the overinflated egos of those who need such things to stimulate themselves, and to attempt to narrow people’s perspective if you take it literally, but a simple process of changing one single letter entirely reverses it.

                  All we need to be aware of is that all we need to do, is to be able to see through the fog of obfuscation of such remarks, and see the totality of the sociological framework that we are presented with, rather than the narrow blinkered view that pervades the industry hacks output pours out with such comments.

                  Fascinating isn’t it?

                  [Comment edited at poster’s request]

  2. As a police officer paid by local residents to look after their physical and mental health, their assets whether land or bricks and mortar and their happiness, I would expect you to act as if your family were my family and visa versa.
    Priority number one is residents safety and a police officer should not be enforcing an incoming business causing distress and potential harm within his beat!

    • Causing stress?,
      Stress can be caused by mental health, and vice-versa!
      Involving yourself and grossly getting too involved within areas of what you don’t understand, and which is miles from you hence should not cause you stress.
      Mental health no matter how severe should not be made worse by stressing and getting involved in which you don’t understand! Police officers are not social workers, they are not trained to deal with anti’s with mental health problems.

      • Fascinating Ele, you appear to be displaying precisely the unfortunate condition of which you speak, anti social, anti humanitarian and anti anti, the complete list. A suitable case for treatment perhaps?

        So we see the true character of these frackists emerging into the light of day don’t we ladies and gentlemen boys and girls.

        Once again their words clearly indicate that these types are unfit to have one iota of influence over anything in this country, let alone any influence over decision making about our energy production.

  3. You do that Fifi.

    However, you might be wiser not to complain about police activity to the College of Policing!

    Just a suggestion, but one I know will be ignored, so, feel comfortable making it. Fill your boots.

    • Well David,

      Grow up, plan your route in advance.

      Avoid likely traffic problems like the M55 junction with the M6, the approaches to the Wesham M55 junction, the British Aerospace traffic lights at rush hours morning and afternoon, all roads to Blackpool and Lytham on sunny weekends and of course Preston New Road around the fracking site since the frackers came uninvited into our Community.
      Simply really isn’t?

    • David. The people at PNR are also going about their lawful business of peaceful protest. The law says that peaceful protest may cause some disruption. . It’s the police who are preventing effective, peaceful protest by moving people out of the way long before they have a chance to engage with drivers or workers. Effective peaceful protest is more than standing corralled on the opposite side of the road with a banner or writing to our MPs. Many of the benefits we take for granted now such as womens’ ‘ votes, anti slavery and workers’ rights, to name a few, were not won by standing out of the way holding a banner.

  4. I’d like to add another category ‘protector’, those who are working to protect us all from climate change annihilation.

  5. I wish Netpol and others would get on with the legal actions against the police then our detractors would realise how the judicial system and mainstream media misrepresent the truth about Constabulary thuggery and perjury.
    Only then will this consultation be based on solid ground rather than pro police and establishment propaganda.

  6. Hey David, maybe try getting a job with companies that don’t invade and disrupt communities’ environments, against their wishes and one that minimises its contribution to catastrophic climate change? Then you won’t have the protesters defending their right to live on a habitable planet and disrupting your travelling convenience?

  7. One little problem with your suggestion, DPNP.

    Your opinion regarding habitable is your opinion. Why should David suffer because you believe your opinion is superior to his? Why should billions of people around the world who aspire to living like the rest of the worlds population be told-“sorry, no chance, some have decided to go a different way so that redistribution has been redistributed elsewhere.”

    I think you will find history full of “movements” who claim moral and intelligence superiority to further their agenda and then find the rest of humanity are not willing to be dictated to, especially when being expected to pay the bill.

    • One little problem with your ridiculous rants McFlu, is that if the fossil fuel industry continues to make the planet uninhabitable then there won’t be any jobs for anyone. So, if you choose to continue business as usual then expect people to defend themselves against it.

      In fact people are already living more sustainable lives, through self-sufficiency and not relying on big corporations or the state to dictate to them how to live. Why should this be only for a minority of people and billions of people have to suffer from extreme climate change and the collapse of ecosystems that support them? We can have healthy, sustainable living standards, working cooperatively with communities across the world once the fossil fuel industry and government stops dictating to us and listens to the vast majority of sensible people who want to live on a healthy, functioning life support system and not with suicidal disaster capitalism.

      • DPNP

        I thought that, in order to move from fossil fuel to renewables, linked to a less carbon intensive lifestyle we would need something akin to a green dictatorship. Only that type of governance would be capable of driving through the required changes.

        Probably in the teeth of opposition from the majority, who would not support such improvements in their community, improvements required to support communities in cities, say.

        If the voters in the UK voted for such an eventuality ( which could be a large majority for whichever party would be prepared to carry out the changes ) then state intervention would be a critical part of the solution ( ie I’d one community was happy to mine coal and burn it in open fires, would that be legal?).

        I do not see how the move to low carbon can be achieved without massive state intervention, a point made on here by pro green posters. So should that intervention not be both required and welcomed?

      • Ahh, there we go DPNP, those who don’t agree just rant!

        The majority of people do not agree with you however, and the majority of people will not be dictated to. If your powers of persuading people that you are correct are that limited, perhaps the message is not persuasive.

        Some people have always lived via self-sufficiency. Some because they wanted to, (including my parents,) most because they had no choice. Once they have a choice, most do not want to continue that lifestyle. I didn’t, my siblings didn’t and the grandchildren didn’t.

        I have visited farms in the Far East where daughters used to be sold, not long ago, as self-sufficiency was not sufficient without. Now, those daughters are not sold and are starting their own businesses and travelling the world and not looking for any cause to attach to, to destroy capitalism. They are wanting to embrace it.

        Plenty of opportunity DPNP to stand around in London and tell the Chinese tourists they should not be seduced. Suggest not outside Harrods, you could get trampled by greedy shoppers.

        Did anyone dictate you were required to use a plastic keyboard? Nope. You had that choice and decided that part of capitalism and fossil fuel was okay for you. If you are allowed to chose why not others?

      • DPNP

        To clarify my point.

        There has been ongoing discussions re how a world could go green in the timescales identified, and what type of government would be best to do it.

        This is discussed in the book linked below.

        https://www.palgrave.com/gp/book/9780333739419

        David shearman touched on this back in 2007

        https://catalogue.nla.gov.au/Record/4364315

        Unfortunately most links on google pre judge the discussion, especially. America where global warming is seen by some as a plan to form a world government ( by Hilary Clinton and Obama ). The same people also prefer less state control, so a world gov seems to be favourite concern.

        The issue ( of less state control ) is highlighted in the book by Tim Moore, as he goes across America in a Ford model T, to discover ‘Trump Land’.

        Plus light-reading here

        https://www.thegwpf.com/green-dreams-of-eco-dictatorship/

        So I was surprised when you mentioned less state interference as a route to take as that is usually the call of the right and business. Hence my question.

    • Hi DestroyPowerNotPeople, of course you are correct, what the Martian Chronicle attempts to do is to reduce the entire climate change deterioration situation down to mere opinion. Which it is not, it is the fact of climate change deterioration.

      And science is not opinion, it is fact, and apart from a dwindling few climate change deniers, one may assume that the Martian Chronicle represents just that, climate change denial, but climate change is very real and here in the UK we have experienced the hottest July on record this year and Spain and France and Germany, the west coast of USA, Africa, South America the intense fires in the Siberian circle, the unprecedented melting of the ice sheets in the north and south poles, the destruction of 70% of insect species, plant and animal species going extinct in the 6th major extinction event in history, and many places in the world are suffering the same gross disruption and unprecedented climate change.

      The argument that represents one opinion versus another is entirely untenable, and attempts to minimalist the subject into mere semantics.

      What has become obvious is that there is the fossil fuel lobby that is desperately attempting to maintain their monopoly of energy supply and distribution, and that is a jealously guarded gatekeeper situation that must be maintained against any opposition or alternative view or threat to profits and the energy monopoly.

      Hence we see the behind doors lobbying of politics and corporations to marginalise and disable any progression towards a saner more intelligent method of energy production distribution and most importantly, price. The present financial situation maintains its revenue and hence its influence and power even at the destruction of the very planet on which it exists, that is insanity.

      That is what we see displayed here on Drill or Drop. What that has resulted in is the massive inertia of the present fossil fuel monopoly to any actual change towards a more intelligent, more responsible method of energy production distribution and price.

      So protest and social unrest and upheaval, is not because that is the intention, but because it’s all we have left, all we get from the inertia laden government is plenty of pretty words but no actual change to the infrastructure of the monopolistic fossil fuel industry. Disruption is unfortunate and regrettable, but all the other avenues of initiating change have simply been denied and squashed.

      Public protest and demonstration, direct action and delays for people going about their business has become the only way to get people to notice and recognise the danger we are all subject to if monopolistic climate changing processes are to continue unabated.

      The simple truth is that the ecology of the planet is failing fast, and this ecology is the only one we have, without we are simply dead and gone. You may ask yourself if that even registers amongst the profit motives, and the simple answer to that is, no, it doesn’t, the financial system simply has no method by which that may be considered even. Ecocide is not a criminal offense, yet, so no one cares. That will have to change before anything else changes.

      Money won’t stop climate change, profit will not stop it, industry rearrangement will not stop it, unlimited industrial and financial growth will not stop it, government and corporate and social inertia will not stop it.

      So something has to give.

      A little delay to make people think about the situation is simply a way to bring that people’s attention, and it is almost the last chance we will get to make a very real change in the world, or a mere delay in cities will be the least of our worries.

      So, no, it is not a matter of opinion, unfortunately it is a matter of necessity, because nothing is actually being done to make any real change, it is still just empty words and business as usual.

      • I know PhilC, MC’s argument always boils down to a pathological obsession with fossil fuel profits which are going to miraculously lift people out of fuel poverty, when it actually does the opposite. This is why we have fuel poverty, because of our current energy inefficient system dominated by fossil fuel monopolists. Why would the energy companies want to do themselves out of business by helping people become more energy efficient, with warmer, insulated homes and have energy self-sufficiency through renewables, saving them money and lifting them out of fuel poverty? The arrogant superiority complex portrayed by the fossil fuel apologists and supporters, thinking they have a right to invade people’s lives all over the planet and extract their black profits at the expense of communities and now the global survival of humanity, is pathological insanity.

          • Which is why it needs radical change and proven renewable technology and energy efficiency needs to replace it, it’s a global emergency in case you are unaware of the scientific facts?

            • Which is why you need to take your case to China / India / Indonesia / Vietnam etc and explain why they won’t be able to have what we have in the west even though that is exactly what their evolving middle classes aspire to. And you may want to address rising population globally? I don’t have the answers but nor do you because what you think will solve our global problems will not happen, rightly or wrongly. If you haven’t lived (or even visited these countries?) plus Africa you won’t understand what I keep saying. But I have lived in the Middle East / Africa and Asia for 18 years and have seen the demand for live Premier League football increase, seem huge airlines and airports develop rapidly, seen bicycles change to motor bikes change to cars as the middle classes evolve. Seen the ski resorts in the deserts….. Look at the numbers of Asians, especially Chinese that are coming to Europe on holiday now, increasing all the time. Try telling them they should stop.

              “The arrogant superiority complex portrayed by the fossil fuel apologists and supporters, thinking they have a right to invade people’s lives all over the planet and extract their black profits at the expense of communities and now the global survival of humanity, is pathological insanity.”

              You may think that but reality is somewhat very different in these countries. I wonder who is really the arrogant one trying to dictate to others?

              • Hi DestroyPowerNotPeople, fascinating isnt it, more cats amongst the fossilised pidgeons, more spanners in the fossil fuel engines!

                Almost immediately the anti antis attempt to turn the climate disaster into some dreadful scary monster style threat of a “green dictatorship” that will force people to change or threaten them with imprisonment or fines!!!

                Where does that come from? Mere excitement and speculation isn’t it, The Martian Chronicals will be very upset.

                The next strategy is to say that anything done in UK will be dwarfed by the standard list of big bad scary monsters of China / India / Indonesia / Vietnam etc. that they claim cannot be influenced and hence they say it is all hopeless and we must therefore do nothing and just let the fossil fuel monopoly just role over us and keep us silent for our own good?

                Yeah, right! Just the usual standard scare tactics aren’t they, in fact we can use one of their favourite phrases, its “scaremongering!”

                Hows about that for irony?

                Not that being scared is a bad thing necessarily, but perhaps it is worth being scared for the right reasons in the real world, not the speculations of the fossil fantasy land.

                When early man went hunting for game, he, or she, would have been very sensible to be concerned with predators, the dangers of the landscape, the weather and the heat or the cold, night and daylight, weapons and maintenance etc. But i doubt if he or she would have been very successful, if he worried that, in order to successfully hunt in the right place and to minimise the dangers, if he concentrated on whether his actions would produce a “hunting dictator” that would demand payment if he trod on a blade of grass, or that in a far away place that the people there were hunting all the game to extinction. He might just choose to stay in his cave and do nothing rather than do anything at all, which is similar to what these fossilised fools are trying to say here.

                No, the answer is to go out and do it, and if everyone does that then the sucessful trend will spread and eventually eve thos in far away counties will follow suit.

                But of course it is the arrogance of the fossil fuel monopoly that created this dire situation in the first place, and it is their protectionism of their monopoly in energy production and distribution that is the problem. That is evidenced by Exxon and Shell’s own scientists in the late 1970’s and early 1980’s, so that very same arrogance attempts to turn around the argument onto those who are only trying to demonstrate what a dire dangerous position we are in. We begin to see how the strategy works don’t we, that is they always attempt to turn around the argument to make the opposition sound so much more scary, sad i know, but that is what we see.

                I am afraid that is standard fare here on Drill or Drop, but it can be easily answered in a non scary, non hopeless, non disastrous manner and that is to do what is intelligent and has a positive effect here and now, and nightmares about “black dictators” and “Chinese dragons” can be left firmly to be recycled into something actually useful in the waste bin of the late, the very late, second dark age.

                • Hmm, there is another aspect to this too, you notice that these fossil fuelled protagonists are careful to say, your choices are either this or that and no other alternative is given.

                  But think about that for a moment, lets take the “green/oil and gas (oag) dictator” question first, as in which would you prefer, a “green dictator” or an “oag dictator”? Are those two the only choices? Are either choice even rational?

                  And then the big bad scary monsters held as shadows up against the bedroom wall to frighten the children, China / India / Indonesia / Vietnam etc. what is suggested, is that anything we do will be dwarfed by their actions. Is that even true? Again we have been proffered a fait accompli without any alternatives or supplemental information, as if it is a given. But what do we know about China and India, Indonesia and Vietnam? Are they the big bad scary climate change causing monsters we are shown in shadow form against the bedroom wall?

                  No, of course not, because the biggest of all China, has the greatest electrification and wind and solar programs on the entire planet, greater than that of the USA, and thanks to Donald Trump, is likely to fall even further behind. India is slower, but the technology and the understanding of the climate dangers are well known there too.

                  it assumes that society and business and government and corporations and financiers, and banks, and money speculators, need to be forced to do the right thing. And the somewhat bizarre assumption is that only the suggested limited choice of “dictator” will be necessary to force them and us to do so. But is that true at all? And if it is true, then what do we do about that?

                  And that, ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls is the real question that emerges from the deliberate dense miasma laid down a fog screen by the anti antis, and highlights a situation that is fundamental to any change in any direction in this country or any other.

                  Is the system as it stands, capable of, or even willing to change, and how do we affect that change?

                  Well, many of those ways of influencing have all ready been tried, legal representation, that has succeeded in some areas such as the injunction debacles, some of those are ongoing it seems, but largely discredited socially and legally.

                  Government pressure and representation, that is successful in quite astonishing ways, mainly thanks to Greta Thunberg and many others, and the public demonstrations and school children’s marches. We now have a declared climate emergency, but much of that is drowned in the brexit debacle and seems destined to create even more mayhem with our beloved new PM and his new cabinet yet to be proven or even heard on the subject.

                  Marches and public demonstrations, they have a great effect and many of the people who are delayed are agreeing with the demonstrations, it seems the silent majority have woken up and they dont like the climate being destroyed by a greedy corrupt few.

                  Education of course, children are being taught climate change in school, i am often surprised when my grandchildren tell me what they know, and their attitude is extremely sophisticated and adult and it was not even a question in my childhood.

                  There is also the internet and there is a growing archive of very honest and even brutally honest videos on the subject and those far far outstrip the inevitable climate change deniers and there are some quite surprising members amongst those.

                  So there is some movement outside of the lobbying and closed session influence and funding rooms, but real change is not via the narrow blinkered options we are proffered here, it is the co-operation and coming together of entire communities and change will result far quicker from that, the moves to make slavery illegal and votes for women prove that an idea has its time, and with climate change, that time has come, no scary monsters or dictators required.

                • Absolutely Phil C, their argument is basically: we just carry on destroying ourselves because the rising middle classes of China and India want to pursue our selfish Western agenda of aggressively raping the planet for the sake of profit instead of working together to work with our life support system. It’s completely insane.

                  Try telling that to members of the indigenous tribes of Brazilian Amazon forest who are currently being murdered, as quoted from XR: “Brazilian police have attacked the Kinikinawa indigenous community and an estimated 20,000 gold miners have invaded the Yanomami Amazon Reserve, apparently emboldened by their President’s aggressively anti-indigenous stance. A leader of the Wajãpi tribe has been murdered.

                  The Peruvian government is attempting to remove protections for over 100,000 hectares of forest and indigenous land.

                  When met with such unimaginable and intolerable violence, it is our responsibility to stand up in solidarity with our fellow peace-seekers.”

                  So the fascist dictators in government have a lot to answer for, not to mention the orange idiot in chief, who’s country should be the world leader in the radical transition, being internationally cooperative to tackle the emergency, rather than insular, and ultra nationalist.

                • “No, the answer is to go out and do it, and if everyone does that then the sucessful trend will spread and eventually even those in far away counties will follow suit”

                  This is all you needed to say PhilC, the rest is waffle.

                  But it does sum up our main disagreement. You believe the above statement; I don’t, based on my experience of living in these countries and working with and for their Governments. I hope you are right – but I don’t think you will be. You are in a very small minority even in the UK.

                  And DPNP :

                  “Try telling that to members of the indigenous tribes of Brazilian Amazon forest who are currently being murdered, as quoted from XR: “Brazilian police have attacked the Kinikinawa indigenous community and an estimated 20,000 gold miners have invaded the Yanomami Amazon Reserve, apparently emboldened by their President’s aggressively anti-indigenous stance. A leader of the Wajãpi tribe has been murdered.

                  The Peruvian government is attempting to remove protections for over 100,000 hectares of forest and indigenous land.

                  When met with such unimaginable and intolerable violence, it is our responsibility to stand up in solidarity with our fellow peace-seekers.”

                  Excellent examples demonstarting what you want is not happening and not going to happen. What happens in the UK is irrelevant to the big picture. The UN is a waste of time, no teeth, no bite. Again I have first hand experience of working with UN agencies. The IPCC will be no different. They do not control Governments. And no doubt Trump will get a second term. Hard to believe but likely to happen.

                  No idea who you are but you do remind me of Dave Spart in Private Eye – you don’t by any chance live in Neasden do you?

                • Oops! Wow! Dear me Paul, you still going on about that? What are you on? About that is…..we really must have hit a nerve or two or more DestroyPowerNotPeople to get such a response.

                  Paul you are clearly labouring, or rather torying, under yet another fundamentally dis-informed misapprehension so dense its likely to collapse into its own black hole, or is that a black dictator oag hole?

                  It is your comment that is waffle old thing, because it seems that what you really dont like, is that ordinary people (Martians silent majority are no longer silent) are awake now and all over the world and they are all saying the same thing. That enough is enough. We have had it to up and way past the limit with greed, self serving warmongering and insane politicians, banksters and governments and corporations, they have outlived their usefulness, if indeed they ever possessed such a thing.

                  Lets put you out of that miserable waffle notion as gently as i can shall we? Well, maybe not that gentle, well, not gentle at all really….

                  So pin back the old flat cat fat cat frack hat old thing and i will assist you….

                  No Paul, I am sorry, but you do not dictate what i write, when i write it, or how i write it, you never have and you never will. The mere suggestion that you could ever have such a bizarre delusion is patently an aspect of that dictatorship obsession that seems to be bandied about here recently.

                  I will give you a clue of how much faith i put in your suggestion. Imagine nothing to the power of infinity, and you will still be in the wrong black oag dictator hole.

                  I have noticed before that you express a defeatist attitude towards any possible solutions to climate change deterioration, its, “oh they are all too big for us, its all too much, we can do nothing against them, and its all hopeless, so you might as well let us frack your ass-ets and just go back to sheep and we will roll right over you as you sleep in your sheep slave beds”.

                  Nope! That ain’t gonna happen buddy.

                  Dont you have any fight left in you? [Edited by moderator] Where is that get up and go, that fury and rage at what is being done to the planet and the ecology, the wildlife and the people of Brazil? Or is it just “oh, its all too much i just cant be bothered”?

                  For gods sake Paul at least try to stand up and fight for the planet which gave you life! Aren’t you in the least bit grateful? Where do you think all that oxygen and food and life came from? Did you think it was all an endless smorgasbord of goodies to be taken without giving anything back and without consequences of the destruction and greed? There isn’t another Earth2 waiting for you, look after this one and the rest of your life might not end in misery and hopelessness after all. Don’t you owe that at least to your children and their children?

                  It was fine when you arrived, now look at it!

                  So, No, i think you are wrong Paul. There is always hope yet, but we better all work for it, not against it, don’t think its not your fight, it may be the last one you ever get, or even ever need, or we all suffer from the corruption and greed of insane idiots like President Jair Messias Bolsonaro and Donald Trump and sycophantic toady company, BoJo not withstanding.

                  Like you say, we differ greatly, apparently fundamentally on that and frankly, i would rather fight for the planet and my children and grandchildren, than just give up and end up promoting the Earth’s destruction by supporting its destroyers any day of the week.

                  Have a nice rest of your days.

                • Well said PhilC, complete defeatist attitude from PT. Because we have temporary fascist dictators in power we must all roll over, be obedient and take it all to hell in a basket; quite a cowardly, pathetic attitude actually. Anyone with a backbone and a sense of justice should be standing up in solidarity with indigenous peoples who depend on the natural world for their survival, as well as affected communities everywhere, because it eventually affects us all! I couldn’t give a f%$@ if i was the last person against this disaster capitalism, because its simply not right that indigenous communities are murdered for the sake of profit and so-called ‘development’ by fascist, ignorant morons. Communities in the U.S. having their public water extracted during drought for Nestle’s profits, or German forests on the verge of collapse because of extreme drought, forest wildfires, disease and other extreme weather events due to catastrophic climate change, all for the sake of temporary profit for the minority. I’m pretty sure the silent majority aren’t too happy about that.

                  Btw way PT I’ve never heard of Dave Spart, so you’re barking up the wrong tree there toots.

                • In my opinion better to be a realist, understand human nature, how the world works and work within the system and possibly do some good, than be outside and work against everything and fail. Perhaps it is because my career involved always planning for things to go wrong, contingency for contingency etc. Glass half empty and all that. I think your eternal optimism is great but it won’t get you anywhere in the world we currently live in. This debate on DOD followed by a few people from industry and several hundred antis and nimbys is pointless.

                  Change of subject – how’s the N2 lifting study coming along PhilC? I see the coiled tubing is already rigged up at Cuadrilla’s PNR well.

                • Yes DestroyPowerNotPeople, if you look at Paul’s comment it explains a lot. A more accurate description than ” realist” would be nihilist or existentialist, neither of which are life enhancing philosophies.

                  You kind of hope people have something positive to live for don’t you. But it seems that as I have noticed before, there is something dreadfully wrong with the fossil fuel industry, banking, government, corporations and frackers.

                  This seems to explain it. As you say, I will choose life and hope any day of the week and I will fight for the children and future generations rather than submit to fatalistic defeatism.

                  I am afraid (not!) that there really is no hope for fracking, they all ready contain the seeds of their own demise, it’s inbuilt futility is assured.

                  [Typos corrected at poster’s request]

                • So PT would rather “work within the system” by promoting fossil fuels instead of energy efficiency and renewables, hardly working within the system to make it better is it? Looks like a pitiful excuse to be part of the continuing insanity and, therefore, part of the problem. [Edited by moderator]

                • Phil C

                  There is no need to fear the term ‘green dictatorship’, unless you are a paid up member of the far right in America it seems.

                  https://naturalclimatechange.us/origin-of-agw-fraud/global-green-dictatorship/

                  The issue is, if we are agreed that drastic action is required globally to prevent runaway climate change, what type of government is required to do that. Starting here in the UK.

                  Maybe a green dictatorship ( which here in the uk would be a party in power with a large majority ) or a green single party dictatorship ( called the peace loving green people’s movement or whatever ).

                  Or as I thought DPNP described, a community led organisation with minimal gov intervention.

                  As Peppone says ( in the don camillo books ), the party has told us what needs doing, democracy is limited to how we carry out the orders. If we need drastic action, has democracy a part, and is it just in how we implement the required directives?

                • Plenty to look forward to PhilC, please don’t waste any time worrying about me or feeling sorry for me. I enjoy every day. Retired early, lots of volunteer and charity work. Lots of habitat restoration and biodiversity enhancement. Lots of great trips overseas and in UK – the bit no doubt you won’t like is the air travel for the overseas trips. Family doing well. Kids future looking great. I just hope you don’t get too streesed worrying about all the doom and gloom you are forecasting for the next generations.

                  nihilism: perhaps you should look in the mirror? Dave Spart would certainly fit several of the definitions…….

                  Total rejection of established laws and institutions.
                  Anarchy, terrorism, or other revolutionary activity.
                  Total and absolute destructiveness, especially toward the world at large and including oneself: the power-mad nihilism that marked Hitler’s last years.
                  Philosophy. An extreme form of skepticism: the denial of all real existence or the possibility of an objective basis for truth.
                  nothingness or nonexistence.
                  (sometimes initial capital letter) the principles of a Russian revolutionary group, active in the latter half of the 19th century, holding that existing social and political institutions must be destroyed in order to clear the way for a new state of society and employing extreme measures, including terrorism and assassination.
                  Annihilation of the self, or the individual consciousness, especially as an aspect of mystical experience.

                  And back to N2 lifting?

                • DPNP – no problem with switching 100% to renewables tomorrow. Promoting energy efficiency is a given. I don’t like paying bills, the less I use the less I pay. If you can come up with a better plan than the Government CCC let them know. They may take you up. But all sensible forecasts show global demand for hydrocarbons going up for another 20 or 30 years before renewables can take over. Thats because these forecasts are realistic and not some green wishful thinking. And you will know if you read any of my posts that I don’t believe shale gas will ever be developed onshore UK. So we do agree on something.

                • Do you see their desperation to hold onto their self generated illusions DestroyPowerNotPeople? Its all word play of course but the trouble is they are not very good at it as illustrated here.

                  “There is no need to fear the term ‘green dictatorship’, unless you are a paid up member of the far right in America it seems.”

                  You see how that works? It is intended to insinuate two things, first that anyone is scared of this fictitious term “green dictatorship” and secondly to attempt to make a connection to this:

                  “unless you are a paid up member of the far right in America it seems”

                  That is pure laughable unattributed unsubstantiated fabrication of course and has no meaning whatsoever, other than the intention to make such false accusations an issue. hewes seems to specialise in this, no doubt he went on a course, unfortunately so did i.

                  That is weaponised word play of course, the intention is to make false accusations to create a mind image and try to make that stick. It means nothing though, but previously having the intended insinuations denied is not acceptable to hewes, so here we see another effort to repeat them and to reinforce them. Mere strategy, and speculation, nothing of any merit at all.

                  What it really reveals is the mindset of hewes himself, in that such insinuations are always self generated, and come from some internal “fear”, you noticed how he attempted to assuage his own fear by saying “there is no need to fear the term” that is an effort to tell himself that he must not fear the term as clearly he does. And that is really what this attempt is all about, it is hewes who fears the term, and also the connection to being “a paid up member of the far right in America” which is also a revealing self admission from hewes, perhaps that is a fear that he has himself committed to such a movement, and an effort to transfer that onto others as before.

                  The effort by hewes to accuse others of his own mindset is typical psychological transference, he attempts to label others to assuage his own fear. Its just excitement and speculation in an attempt to create false labels, but its just delusional nonsense as usual, perhaps it is a deep psychological need to pull everyone down to their level, where nothing has any meaning or hope. Quite sad really.

                  Having dispensed with hewes, lets see what Paul has to say shall we?

                  “nihilism: perhaps you should look in the mirror? Dave Spart would certainly fit several of the definitions…….” That mirror is all your Paul, take a good hard look!

                  Obviously Paul doesnt read very well, as i have all ready said i believe in life and hope and i will fight for my family and future generations, but apparently the nihilist word has struck a chord with Paul, and clearly he wishes, as hewes did, to transfer that back to me, but that does not work since i am neither nihilist not existentialist as i said before, in fact i have a very great love for life and i will protect all future generations from the growing threat of climate change, and that about as far from nihilism or existentialism as you can get.

                  I see Paul is also desperately trying to reinforce his own illusion about you being someone else? Bizarre, but we see that quite a lot from Paul, perhaps that is another psychological transference trying to assuage some guilt about multiple ID’s of his own? We have seen before that Paul tends to accuse others of his own mindset, perhaps this is an admission of his own culpability in that respect? He is certainly desperate to make the accusation, again, bizarre!

                  Also this:

                  “I just hope you don’t get too streesed worrying about all the doom and gloom you are forecasting for the next generations.”

                  Again you see the attempt to transfer his own fears onto me, when i have clearly stated that i have hope and love for all life and i will fight for my family, my grandchildren and everyone else’s families and grandchildren. And it is not my “forecast for the next generations” it is science and the findings of the majority of scientist that are warning about the growing threat of climate change. So, you notice again Pauls attempt to make it a personal issue whilst ignoring all the scientific evidence, again that is desperation to attempt to minimise his own fears in that respect. Quite transparently Paul does not wish to acknowledge the “real world” he seems to want to claim to live in, but actually fears even the reality of climate change.

                  My dear Paul, what you are avoiding to acknowledge is that millions of people all over the world have demonstrated to stop further climate change, statistically that represents only a small fraction of those who also know that but could not demonstrate, so maybe 70% more who felt that way and many more since and growing every day.

                  The days of the fossil fuel monopololy are fading fast and much of the sheer insanity in poiltics and finance and government and corporations is a rather belated attempt to desperately jam everything back in the bag, but is too late, the flat cat fat cat frack hats are out of the bag now and change is coming, no oag black dictators, no green dictators, no nihilistic fatalistic defeatism, the world will change whether the fossil fuel industry want it or not.

                  So no old thing, you can keep your nihilistic fatalistic hopeless view and hewes can keep his “dictator” fixation, but the rest of us will simply move forward in the only intelligent responsible way for turning this entire planet back to climate sanity and begin at last to clean up the polluted mess that this second dark age has left us, and we will make the polluter pay for it.

                  Right that is the end of all that empty time wasting rhetoric from those two, i’ve spent too much time wasted on their fracking fantasies all ready.

                  Have a nice day….both of you…..

                • And you PhilC, enjoy your day.

                  As to DestroyPowerNotPeople being someone else? I expect this is not his / her real name so he / she is “someone else”….. Why not Dave Spart?

                  At least I post with a full name PhilC…

                  The rain has stopped, a Greylag Goose to smoke so off to light the smoker – would Greta approve?

                • PT you did leap to a bizarre, rather poorly informed conclusion on who I could possibly be. However, I also believe in personal privacy and no one has the right to invade that. To satisfy the curiosity of H62, I do not advocate any kind of dictatorship (right or left-wing), but a free society with individual freedoms, along with collective responsibility – I believe that is the best way to build bridges between sensible left and right-wing views. It’s childish to assume freedom means you can do what you want and sod the consequences for anyone else. I believe in individual freedom and direct democracy/community accountability are not mutually exclusive. It may take a while to reach democratic consensus but it is worth it, because everyone has the opportunity to have a say and equal opportunity and not feel excluded by lack of wealth, land, government or private corporate power. I do advocate mass civil disobedience if corrupt governments or any other powerful entity decides it has a right to impose collective suicide on citizens, wherever it operates. Governments have broken the contract with the people they are supposed to serve and clearly are not. Private corporations have even less of a right to impose this, so must be resisted, when they go against the democratic will of the local population. It’s not perfect but it’s better than any authoritarian oppression, private or state.

                • DPNP
                  Thanks for your reply on the issue.

                  I did not think you advocated a dictatorship, others ( as per the links ) are worried, but for their own reasons.

                  My youngest (20) daughter asked me a while ago how the UK would move to a more Green way of working and that led to a discussion on politics, a few books for her to read re background info and literature on where the various parties stand on environmental issues.

                  The consensus was that the main parties would co opt just enough sufficient Environmental Credentials to get elected. Cut and paste from the greens etc.

                  Plus, as Boris has found a money tree, maybe he ( or any other elected party ) may decide to spend cash on tidal energy ( rather than HS2 say ). We shall see no doubt.

                  We than looked at India as an example of where large increases in pollution may well come from, primarily from coal. How will the Modi gov get to grips with that issue ( which is CCS if you are ‘big coal’ ) if at all. The answer is unlikely to be found in Kashmir.

                  https://www.worldcoal.org/role-coal-india’s-energy-ambitions

                • H62, unfortunately the Modi government is also far-right and authoritarian, despite the veneer of democracy. Western “democracies” need to lead by example. It is inevitable that poorer countries will wonder if rich countries can’t do it, then why should they? It’s a combination of reducing inequality so people aren’t consumed just by every day survival, but have enough to live comfortably and have enough time and freedom to make their environment a better place. However, enough people, spreading mass civil disobedience, will render leaders helpless and listen to the demands of the people for clean air, water, natural habitat, etc. We cannot rely on the powers that be, it truly is up to citizens to rebel on mass and demand institutions protect and enhance life. This is not impossible and Citizens Assemblies, to get governments to listen and act, is a start.

                • Phil C

                  Good to see you have overcome your fear of the term green dictatorship.

                  Have you any thoughts as to which type of gov is best suited to deliver the appropriate green agenda in order to prevent the forthcoming climate issues?

                  Plus, Which course did we both go on ( you refer to us both going on a course ).

                  Was it an oil and gas one, mining, emergency response, ISO 140001 auditing, media handling, rope access, scaffolding, or something else?

        • Except you are totally incorrect, DPNP.

          How do you think winter fuel payments are funded? Perhaps, if £500m/year was not provided to ONE wind farm, over and above a competitive rate, that TAX PAYER money could be utilised to add more to winter fuel payments for those who may die from disease caused via fuel poverty. £500m, every year, would go a long way in that respect.

          Mind you, if you check on pensioners income you will find a high percentage are indeed saved from fuel poverty due to some of their pension coming from high dividends from companies like Shell. Certainly not from Tesla.

          So, that is just collateral damage from excessive cost of renewables. Of course, it must be an exception. Perhaps safer to burn wood pellets? Oops. That was a great success in N.Ireland. What were you saying about arrogance and superiority?

          Good to see, like most who want to dictate, you still want to be excluded from that. I’m sure when you have worn out the current plastic keyboard Nice Sir Jim will make you another.

          • I’m afraid MC you are talking a load of twaddle and are totally incorrect. Onshore wind can be the cheapest form of energy, closely followed by solar, ahead of gas. How can energy efficiency programmes, which reduce energy bill consumption increase fuel poverty? That makes no sense. You are living in an upside down fantasy world with lots of blinkers. However, the fossil fuel industry that gets special tax breaks (unlike renewables, which have had subsidies completely abolished and VAT increased unnecessarily to 20%) still results in year on year increases in fuel bills. Fuel poverty existed before renewables became perfectly viable. Maybe if more thoughtful wealthy pensioners donated their winter fuel payments to our local community energy Coop there would be less fuel poverty. It’s done wonders to help alleviate fuel debt on the extortionate bills from energy companies like British Gas. Then helping them switch to cheaper energy companies that invest in renewables like Bulb and Octopus Energy (not getting commission for this btw, just stating helpful facts).

            Plus it is also well known that fracking will not result in reduced energy bills, ooops.

            Better still there are many examples of community owned wind turbines, rooftop solar PV, community energy coops, paying dividends to the community and their shareholder investors, despite government undermining of solar and effectively banning cheap onshore wind for a minority of loud mouth, middle class naysayers having their views apparently spoilt. 70% support onshore wind, contrary to Tory MPs narrow beliefs.

            The current tax regime giving tax breaks to whole house retrofit programmes and renewables and increasing the taxation of the polluting fossil fuel industry to pay for it, will dramatically reduce fuel poverty for people, start hammering the nails into the fossil fuel coffin and force them to invest in the renewable industry.

            Instead of risking pensions by investing in expensive fossil fuel stranded assets, they should divest fossil fuels to reinvest in the emerging retrofit and renewable industry, which is very much itching to get going.

            And, by the way, if I could influence my employer to invest in a bamboo or bio plastic keyboard I would, but unfortunately I have little choice in the matter, which is also the point!

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